PF01 and AT01 differences superficial?

[wintermute offline]

Has anyone here had a chance to "look under the hood" of a PF01? Seen one nekkid? I was wondering whether the bodywork was the chief difference, or are the innards different as well? If the internal design differs, it would be my hope that this prototype influenced it heavily:

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In fact, if I'd been a decision maker at Kyosho, I would have had a stylist design bodywork for that robot, then I'd put it into production and price it at, say, $1995. But after watching PF01 in videos, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that quite a bit of the agile, sphere-headed prototype made it into the PF01's design. I don't get the same impression from watching the AT01 do its stuff, which leads me to suspect that the two models are not mechanically identical. Can anyone shed some light?

[tempusmaster offline]

Has anyone here had a chance to "look under the hood" of a PF01? Seen one nekkid? I was wondering whether the bodywork was the chief difference, or are the innards different as well? If the internal design differs, it would be my hope that this prototype influenced it heavily:

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In fact, if I'd been a decision maker at Kyosho, I would have had a stylist design bodywork for that robot, then I'd put it into production and price it at, say, $1995. But after watching PF01 in videos, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that quite a bit of the agile, sphere-headed prototype made it into the PF01's design. I don't get the same impression from watching the AT01 do its stuff, which leads me to suspect that the two models are not mechanically identical. Can anyone shed some light?

The 'MANOI' in the video is Takahashi's original design. It's a beautiful piece of work, but like most of his designs would cost $$$ if you tried to manufacture it, even in quantity.

We were part of the team that did a complete disassembly and analysis of the original design (April, 2006) and posted a four part report that includes the information we were allowed to publically disclose.

About that time Kyosho made the decision to develop and release the AT01 while they redesigned the PF01 to make it manufacturable at a reasonable price point.

The PF01 retains a lot, but not all, of Takahashi's design, but has been cost reduced. Had they gone ahead with the original design the price point would have been over $3,000 (just our estimate), there would have been potential service and support issues, and the product wouldn't have worked very well as a kit.

[wintermute offline]

The 'MANOI' in the video is Takahashi's original design. It's a beautiful piece of work, but like most of his designs would cost $$$ if you tried to manufacture it, even in quantity.

We were part of the team that did a complete disassembly and analysis of the original design (April, 2006) and posted a four part report that includes the information we were allowed to publically disclose.

About that time Kyosho made the decision to develop and release the AT01 while they redesigned the PF01 to make it manufacturable at a reasonable price point.

The PF01 retains a lot, but not all, of Takahashi's design, but has been cost reduced. Had they gone ahead with the original design the price point would have been over $3,000 (just our estimate), there would have been potential service and support issues, and the product wouldn't have worked very well as a kit.

Wow! Many thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for. I'll be studying that four-parter. I admire Takahashi's designs. You're no doubt familiar with this one as well:

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Personally, I feel there's a market for high-end robots with prices in the $2500 to $5000 range. If Takahashi's original design had gone into production, $3000 wouldn't be excessive, in my opinion; I'd probably be among the buyers. The prototype's movements are eerily similar to a 1 1/2-year old toddler. If the bodywork's design echoed that, buyers would line up in droves, anxious to have a programmable child surrogate with a shutoff switch. As for the female robot in the video above -- well, Kyosho's main problem would be producing enough to satisfy the demand, no matter what the cost.

In the short-run, I plan to buy a RoboPhilo, as I indicated in another thread, just to get my feet wet. But I'm drawn to the PF01 and others of that type, robots that are a step up from the form-follows-function designs with visible servos, wires, and brackets, although these robots are cool in their own right, don't get me wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the very informative comeback.

[wintermute offline]

After studying the four-part report, it would appear that the differences between the PF01 and AT01 are indeed superficial. To my eye, it looks like they share the same servo/bracket configuration. Is this correct? If so, then the assembly instructions available in English for the AT01 also apply to the PF01, apart from the body shells. Regardless, the PF01's and AT01's movements do not look identical to me. The PF01 appears to be smoother and more agile, somehow. Its walk seems more balanced and coordinated. Or am I just seeing things?

[tempusmaster offline]

After studying than four-part report, it would appear that the differences between the PF01 and AT01 are indeed superficial. To my eye, it looks like they share the same servo/bracket configuration. Is this correct? If so, then the assembly instructions available in English for the AT01 also apply to the PF01, apart from the body shells. Regardless, the PF01's and AT01's movements do not look identical to me. The PF01 appears to be smoother and more agile, somehow. Its walk seems more balanced and coordinated. Or am I just seeing things?

Sorry - they are not superficially different at all. There are significant design differences. It's certainly true that they use the same servos, same controller, and both have 17 DOF, but the PF01 design is much more complex, stiffer, heavier, has different geometry especially in terms of the DOF layout. Although its movements can be smoother and more lifelike (or at least anime like) than the AT01, it is much slower and more sensitive to adjustment and alignment.

If you want to really dig into the differences in detail, then the assembly diagrams and photos in the PF01 manual and the AT01 manual should be quite useful. They're only available in Japanese at this point, but there are enough illustrations you probably won't have too much trouble comparing the two.

[wintermute offline]

I just finished going through the PF01 manual. On first reading it appears to be very complete. It would be nice to have English text, of course, but the diagrams are detailed and clear, perhaps enough that someone who was careful and meticulous might be able to assemble the robot working from the diagrams alone. It would be a challenge, certainly, but it could probably be done, providing the drawings and labeling of parts in the manual are accurate. As an aside, I was amused by the repetition in the manual. For example, after describing how the right limbs are assembled, the manual does not state that the same steps should be followed for the left limbs; it repeats the same step-by-step procedure for the left, as though mirroring a process on opposite limbs is beyond the average assembler's conceptual ability. But no matter. Anyway, it's an interesting design. The next generation of Manoi should really be impressive. Thanks for the info, tempusmaster.

[tempusmaster offline]

I just finished going through the PF01 manual. On first reading it appears to be very complete.

It is, without a doubt, the best manual available.

It would be nice to have English text, of course, but the diagrams are detailed and clear, perhaps enough that someone who was careful and meticulous might be able to assemble the robot working from the diagrams alone.

They can. Quite a few people in the US and Europe that don't understand Japanese at all have done it.

It would be a challenge, certainly, but it could probably be done, providing the drawings and labeling of parts in the manual are accurate.

They are accurate. There were some mistakes in the original manual, but the beta customers (about 50 of us) provided a lot of feedback and Kyosho was very good about correcting all the errors.

As an aside, I was amused by the repetition in the manual. For example, after describing how the right limbs are assembled, the manual does not state that the same steps should be followed for the left limbs; it repeats the same step-by-step procedure for the left,

Kyosho learned from long experience in the RC hobby world. It's better to take the time to spell it all out in great and gory detail then to spend a lot of time later trying to deal with confused customers.

as though mirroring a process on opposite limbs is beyond the average assembler's conceptual ability.

It is beyond a lot of people's conceptual ability. You can find lots of examples by just scanning the posts on these, and other, forums. It's the lucky minority that are blessed with the ability to think spatially and be able to mirror things in their head.

But no matter. Anyway, it's an interesting design. The next generation of Manoi should really be impressive.

It will be. Very impressive.

Thanks for the info, tempusmaster.

You're very welcome.

[wintermute offline]

tempusmaster, you seem to have the inside track on Manoi, so if you don't mind indulging me in a few additional questions...

It appears from the photos and videos I've seen that the PF01's legs do not rotate where they attach to the hips. Is that the case? One problem with no leg rotation is that the robot is limited to turning by sliding one foot forward and one back, which is unrealistic-looking.

Do you anticipate that export restrictions will be lifted on the PF01? Or that Kyosho's next-gen models will encounter export restrictions? What's Kyosho doing about restrictions on their products? Would Japan's customs be likely to actually seize a robot kit that was on the no-export list?

Finally, would it be futile to hope that Kyosho will put Takahashi's FT into production? Now that is what I would call a "next-gen design."

[wintermute offline]

Finally, would it be futile to hope that Kyosho will put Takahashi's FT into production? Now that is what I would call a "next-gen design."

Holy Saint Robby! Look what I stumbled across: THIS. That's the most exciting thing I've read lately. I'd shell out $2500 for one of those, export restrictions permitting. On the other hand, it also states, "Price to be determined." Hope this isn't some sort of cruel hoax, designed to tantalize gullible enthusiasts such as myself.

[tempusmaster offline]

tempusmaster, you seem to have the inside track on Manoi, so if you don't mind indulging me in a few additional questions...

Sure, no problem.
If it's something important, or time critical, then send me a PM as well as posting here. Sometimes it can be a few days before I get the chance to check the forums.

It appears from the photos and videos I've seen that the PF01's legs do not rotate where they attach to the hips. Is that the case?

That's true. The PF01 is 17 DOF, so it doesn't have hip or individual leg rotation.

One problem with no leg rotation is that the robot is limited to turning by sliding one foot forward and one back, which is unrealistic-looking.

I would say that most of the robots you've seen may move unrealistically, but their movements can be improved considerably even without additional DOF.

Do you anticipate that export restrictions will be lifted on the PF01?

Where did you hear that there are export restrictions on the PF01?

Living here in Japan I don't normally run into export restriction issues, so that may be the case. Still, the core technology is almost the same as the AT01 which is being exported.

Or that Kyosho's next-gen models will encounter export restrictions? What's Kyosho doing about restrictions on their products? Would Japan's customs be likely to actually seize a robot kit that was on the no-export list?

In most cases it's a business decision. If the company, probably Kondo rather than Kyosho, believes that there is a significant enough opportunity overseas they can apply for export permission and it would more than likely be granted - though it does take time, money, and effort to go through the process.

Finally, would it be futile to hope that Kyosho will put Takahashi's FT into production? Now that is what I would call a "next-gen design."

Just my opinion, but again it's basically a business decision.

The FT performance is quite impressive. Still, you have to wonder what else it will be able to do besides a good imitation of a model struting down a fashion runway. That would get pretty boring very quickly if that's all the FT can do.

[tempusmaster offline]

Finally, would it be futile to hope that Kyosho will put Takahashi's FT into production? Now that is what I would call a "next-gen design."

Holy Saint Robby! Look what I stumbled across: THIS. That's the most exciting thing I've read lately. I'd shell out $2500 for one of those, export restrictions permitting. On the other hand, it also states, "Price to be determined." Hope this isn't some sort of cruel hoax, designed to tantalize gullible enthusiasts such as myself.

Don't hold your breath....

[wintermute offline]

Where did you hear that there are export restrictions on the PF01?

Trossen, among others:

Attention! The Manoi PF01 Humanoid Robot Kit is currently on hold due to exportation restrictions. That's right, PF01 is so good, the Japanese government won't let Kyosho export it! As we speak, our friends overseas are working to get the proper governmental approval, but we do not know how long this will take. Hopefully, shipments of the new and improved Manoi PF01 Humanoid will resume in the very near future. In the meantime, we are still selling the Manoi AT01 Humanoid Robot Kit, and all previous sales restrictions have been removed!

The FT performance is quite impressive. Still, you have to wonder what else it will be able to do besides a good imitation of a model struting down a fashion runway. That would get pretty boring very quickly if that's all the FT can do.

It might take quite a while before the boredom sets in. Maybe sometime around 2010.

[tempusmaster offline]

Where did you hear that there are export restrictions on the PF01?

Trossen, among others:

Attention! The Manoi PF01 Humanoid Robot Kit is currently on hold due to exportation restrictions. That's right, PF01 is so good, the Japanese government won't let Kyosho export it!

Nice marketing BS...

[wintermute offline]

Where did you hear that there are export restrictions on the PF01?

Trossen, among others:

Attention! The Manoi PF01 Humanoid Robot Kit is currently on hold due to exportation restrictions. That's right, PF01 is so good, the Japanese government won't let Kyosho export it!

Nice marketing BS...

What?!? You would have me believe that a retailer would say something about a product that wasn't absolutely true? That would shatter my faith in human nature. Next, you'll be telling me that politicians don't always have the best interests of their constituents in mind.

So as far as you know, PF01s are being shipped to the US with no problem?

[Alpha2 offline]

At 8th page of Manoi PF01 manual, it is clearly written that you may have to get permission from the government if you are going to take Manoi PF01 outside Japan. It depends on the country where you are going.

Manoi PF01 contains Kondo gyro sensor unit KRG-3. The similar export restriction statement is also written in the manual of KRG-3. I think this is one of the reason why Kyosho cannot export easily.