Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

[IgorT offline]

Hi everyone!

I'm new here, but i've been reading for about a week now, trying to find as much information as possible before making a hard decision....

I have to decide which robot is better for me - the AT01 or the RoboBuilder... And i have to do it soon (two days max).


Basically i've always been a robot enthusiast, but until recently i was unable to afford an expensive robot kit.

But just over a week ago i stumbled upon Dr. GIY's AT01's dancing on YouTube and my passion was relit. I started thinking of all the wonderful things i could do with such an amazing robot.

Unfortunatelly the next thing i noticed was the price. Still about $2000 everywhere i look.

So i pretty much settled for the RoboBuilder kit after a while.
Or so i thought...


A couple of days ago i was offered an old but completelly unused MANOI AT01 kit for only $800! I couldn't believe my luck! A new RCB3 alone costs as much, never mind the servos and other parts..


So i jumped on the offer. But then i started thinking...

While i was "settling" for the RoboBuilder i got accustomed to the thought of having all those amazing features available... Multiple programming options (C being the most important for me), servos with position and torque feedback, not to mention the nice joint-insert system and the drop-down servo communications (and all the other forms one can assemble the RoboBuilder in)...


Now i'm worried that the AT01 would not deliver enough possibilities for what i wish to do with my robot.... Still, a whole AT01 for $800 almost seems like a too good an opportunity to waste!


What i want to do with the robot is:
- Program it with advanced balancing skills (using gyro feedback to continuously adjust the servos for balance, even while walking or doing other things - by modifying the motion data in real time).
- Make it autonomous, so it can walk around a room "exploring", using distance sensors to determine it's path, perhaps even giving it some crude spatial memory/awareness...
- Program it to do other interesting and challenging things i have not yet thought of...

Now i know i can do the second thing with the MANOI...
But i'm not so sure about the first (and the third).


Thing is i don't really know what kind of manipulation the RCB3 and it's programing software H2H allow.

When the robot tilts in one direction, i don't just want the controller to play out a fixed motion to prevent the robot from falling. I want it to continuously adjust the servos based on the gyro feedback in order to keep the body upright (or whichever angle keeps it in balance in that situation) even while playing various motions (real time motion manipulation).

This is going to be a hard programing challenge in either case, but at least with RoboBuilder i know it can be done.

But does the MANOI allow such programming without having to completelly rewrite it's firmware and doing everything from scratch?


This is the answer i've been looking for all night and haven't found yet.
I barelly managed to find out what MCU the RCB3 uses, altho i still don't know at what frequency the processor is running (16MHz or more?)...


Also are there any other programming options for the MANOI AT01 besides the H2H software?

Is it possible to program it in C? I used to be very good at programming, but latelly i fell out of shape. But i would love nothing more than to get back in shape through playing with a robot.



If i order the MANOI, i will eventually (in a couple of months) probably also buy a RoboBuilder from RoboSavvy for all the other possibilities it allows, but i'm really worried that if i don't get the MANOI now i might never get a chance like this again (the offer only lasts a couple more days)....


The AT01 is so pretty... What should i do?


P.S. One last question: I've been searching for good robot-hobby forums all night as well, but except for this one i haven't found any with lots of useful info about the MANOI, and even here the info is scarce. Luckily there is plenty on the KHR-2HV which seems to be pretty identical.

Still, are there any other good robot communities you would recommend for MANOI related topics?

[IgorT offline]

Another thing that worries me about the MANOI is that the servos cost over $100 each!

I'm worried that while i'd get the kit at a good price, the later repairs would eventually bankrupt me if i had to keep buying new servos...


- How often do MANOI's KRS-4024 servos break?
- Is it mostly possible to repair them with the replacement gear sets available from this store?
- I've seen some metal gears for the KRS-4024 servos, but is there a complete metal gear upgrade available as is the case with the RoboBuilder servos?


Another equally important question:
The RCB3 has three analog inputs available. Obviously i would want two gyros and a distance sensor. But if i understand everything correctly this would fill up all the available analog inputs. Unfortunately i would also like the RAS2 accelerometer and later possibly even something else...
- How would one go about connecting additional sensors to the RCB3?

I've seen the RSC-1 sensor interface board, but apparently it only works with the RCB-1 or is it RCB3 compatible too? Adding four analog ports to the existing three would be plenty...

Then there is the (MUCH) more expensive "Autonomous Robot Starter Kit" which seems to be meant for RCB3, with the KCB-1 sensor interface board... But how many analog inputs does this board have (all the description says is "several")? I guess it would work. If only it didn't cost so much...


And the last question: What (if anything) makes the MANOI better than the RoboBuilder?
I'm desperate - i'll take any excuse to buy it...



I'm sorry for asking so many questions at once. If only i knew about the offer sooner i would have read all the relevant KHR-2HV threads and figured most of it out myself. Unfortunatelly i did not realize sooner that the MANOI is practically identical so i only read the MANOI threads...


Any help would be welcome. Thanks!

[i-Bot offline]

While I could say which I myself would choose, it would still be a difficult choice between an $800 Manoi/KHR and a Robobuilder.

To help you support your decision process we really need to know more about your own capabilities and interests.

Do you want to compete ? Make videos ?, Entertain ?
Are you into mechanics/construction/modifications ?
Do you have the patience and skill to develop advanced moves and motions yourself, or do you want these out of the box ?
Do you want to develop the electronics (sensors etc.) ?
Have you any embedded programming skills or interest ?
What are your software skills ?
Are you Windows or Linux ?
Both are a little off the current "main stream" humanoid choices, do you care ? if this gives you a good value robot.

Either will be terrific fun and fantastic learning experience. There is support for both Manoi/KHR and Robobuilder here on Robosavvy. Support is often a bit reactive, but ask a sensible question and you usually get a quality reply.

You are right to include "maintenance" and breakage costs, probably around 10% of list price per year. Upgrade costs are depending on your
budget.

[Orac offline]

Hi,

As per above, you really need to decide what you want out of it.

I have a Manoi and it is not for the faint hearted.

Support is minimal, very few owners outside of Japan.

H2H is great, but can be difficult to get started in. I haven't even tried programming it properly and rely on my software triggering set moves programmed by H2H.

Its fast and powerful, but can be tricky to set up.

[IgorT offline]

First of all, thanks for your replies guys! Appreciate it a lot!

While I could say which I myself would choose, it would still be a difficult choice between an $800 Manoi/KHR and a Robobuilder.

It is a hard choice, isn't it? I wouldn't have thought if it wasn't for me having "settled" for the RoboBuilder and gotten used to it's fancy features... If the first thing i saw was the $800 MANOI i would not have even heard of the RoboBuilder at this time...

To help you support your decision process we really need to know more about your own capabilities and interests.

Right, i should have explained more... Here goes:

Do you want to compete ? Make videos ?, Entertain ?

I am not really into competitions, besides in my country there are none that i know of.

My main goal is to entertain - myself - by solving complex and hard programing challenges.

I used to program for fun when i was in high school. I was very good at it at that time, but fell out of shape in recent years.
A robot would give me a new opportunity to practice programing for fun, get back in shape and learn more about programing than i have before...

Are you into mechanics/construction/modifications ?

Totally! For me that's the fun part!

Do you have the patience and skill to develop advanced moves and motions yourself, or do you want these out of the box ?

Yes. Initially i would want canned motions, but as i said, one of my wishes is to create powerful balancing algorithms that can work even during other motions by modifying motion data in real-time.

I would use original motions, i would change them as needed and i would like to create my own as well...

Do you want to develop the electronics (sensors etc.) ?

If i have to, i have no problem with it, i develope and build certain electronic devices at work... But mostly i'd just use the available sensors / gyros / accelerometers / whatever, unless what i needed wasn't available...

Have you any embedded programming skills or interest ?

You mean MCU programing? Some, but very little. But it wouldn't take me long to learn if i had C++ support... And it's one of the things i would really love to master. And a robot is the perfect opportunity...

What are your software skills ?

You mean using various software? Very good. I've been playing with computers since i was like 5 or so...

Are you Windows or Linux ?

I'm a Windows user. But if you are asking about programing again i would have to say "DOS"...
To be honest, the l last time i did complex programing was when the fastest PCs were 100-133MHz Pentium I's.

At that time i had a 66MHz 486 and in my spare time i was programing (among other things) reasonably good (for that time) real-time 3D graphics engines on it for fun.

The hard part was keeping the graphics smooth once the scenes got complex, shaded or even textured, a 66MHz 486 is somewhat limited in that respect (too bad we didn't have 3GHz CPUs and 3D graphics accelerators at that time, life would have been fun! ).


But like i said, i kinda fell out of programming in later years.
The last thing i did was a simple program that decoded sensor measurements from an external device (a device i had to design for a customer) and plotted the data graphically on screen. But that was barely worth mentioning, so i (sadly) consider myself not to have done any serious programming in many years now...

But i believe i could get back in shape very quickly if i set my mind to it and had a robot to motivate me...


Umm, in those years i was using first Turbo Pascal and then C++.. That's why i badly want the robot to allow C++ programing.

Both are a little off the current "main stream" humanoid choices, do you care ? if this gives you a good value robot.

I couldn't care less what is currently mainstream. I love the MANOI robot and i really like the RoboBuilder. I think both are great and will probably buy the MANOI now and the RoboBuilder in a month or two so i'll have both.

The only thing i'm trying to figure out is if it really is a good idea to jump on the MANOI now...



But i did some more research and reading and i found that the RCB3 is programmable with C / C++, so most of my worries are now gone.


Also i've been looking at the Roboard thing and accessories and realized that it can replace the brains of the MANOI with a powerful 1GHz computer!
And with all the added Gyro/Accel/Sensor boards and even the LCD that thing would shockingly cost less than certain Kondo accessories i was planning to buy.

And a 1GHz PC is something i know i can program and it could easily run any and all projects i can make up for a robot (at least for now)...


But obviously i'm gonna start out with the RCB3 controller and learn to program that, so i learn a few new things. If/when i decide to upgrade to the Roboard i will try to port whatever i create by then and of course add more abilities...


My main concern was the possibility to program the controller in a language familiar to me. Now that i found out it's possible i'm quite happy and decided to get the MANOI.

I'll just go back over my own original questions one more time to see if there is something else i need to know or if i thought of additional questions....



One thing i forgot to ask earlier:
I was looking at the KHR-2HV robot and it says it's servos have position feedback, cos you can move the robot and the software records how you moved it and creates motion files out of it...

I read again and again that the MANOI is based on or even identical to the KHR-2HV robot. But i know the MANOI uses different (much more exypensive) servos...

So i am almost praying to hear "yes" to this question, even tho i fear it's not so:
- Can MANOI AT01 provide servo position feedback like the KHR-2HV, or are the double priced MANOI servos for some reason not capable of this?!?


KHR-2HV has the same RCB3 but it's servos are digital. I'm afraid MANOI doesn't have this ability, but then again i didn't expect it anyway. Just the KHR-2HV listing confused me...

Too bad...

[IgorT offline]

Hi,

As per above, you really need to decide what you want out of it.

I have a Manoi and it is not for the faint hearted.

Thanks for taking the time to answer me...

I told as much as possible about myself in the above reply, but i did ask some concrete questions before that.

I marked all my questions in the first two posts by bolding them.


If someone could help answer some of them i would appreciate it very much!



Otherwise what i want from my robot is mostly programming autonomous behavior and trying to create advanced balancing algorithms for it. I would like the program to continuously run my balance program in the background and adjust the servos regardless of whether the robot is standing still, running or standing on one leg. I've already partially created some methods for this in my head while daydreaming about these robots - that's how obsessed i got with them.

I know it's gonna be hard, but that's what i like about programming..



Also nice to meet another MANOI owner! I may bother you with questions in the future if you don't mind..
In the meanwhile, could you perhaps provide an english construction manual for the MANOI and/or any other hard to find english files?


Otherwise, how often do you have to replace the servos? Did you upgrade any of them to higher torque models?

[Tyberius offline]

Strictly performance wise, a Manoi/Kondo bot will wipe the floor with a Robobuilder. They aren't even in the same league, a Manoi/Kondo is physically a superior robot.

The software for a Manoi may have a steeper learning curve, but it's at least still being developed and pushed forward, and is pretty comprehensive. The software for Robobuilder is TERRIBLE, and has laid dormant in terms of development for close to 2 years now.

[IgorT offline]

Strictly performance wise, a Manoi/Kondo bot will wipe the floor with a Robobuilder. They aren't even in the same league, a Manoi/Kondo is physically a superior robot.

Hehe, thank you!

That's the excuse i was looking for... I'm getting the MANOI!

Eventually i'll probably also get the RoboBuilder and build a dog or a spider with a 1GHz brain and pretend AI...


At the moment i am completelly enchanted by the RoBoard thing. Almost more than with the MANOI itself! An AT01 with the RoBoard has to be one of the most amazing robots ever!



But while i'm very grateful for the pep-talk, there are still many questions left unanswered - like most of the bolded stuff in the first two posts...



And then i have additional questions:
- Does the MANOI AT01 even support catch-n-play or any kind of servo position feedback? I was already almost sure it doesn't but then the RoBoard manuals kept talking about reading PWM servo positions and now i'm confused again...

- Would a RoBoard fit into the MANOI's pretty body shells? Did anyone try?

- Does MANOI's RCB-3 controller support any kind of low level programming at all, in the sense that for example a C++ program would be loaded into it and it would execute it, controlling motions and balancing adjustments in real time? I thought the RCB-3 API with it's C++ support meant just this, but then i realized it was for PC control of the RCB-3?!?




And last but not least. I just had to look around the RoboSavvy page again and stumble upon this special offer!

Oh my god, it's almost exactly the same thing as what i want to build except without the pretty white body shells..

And this one actually does offer servo position feedback and catch-n-play motion programming! (With the MANOI i'm still not sure...)

And it costs less than what i was going to pay for the MANOI later tonight and already has the RoBoard that would cost me $300+ on top!


If it was possible to attach MANOI's white body shells onto the KHR-1 body, this possibly would have been my ideal robot at a lower cost!

- Is it possible to attach MANOI's body shell onto a KHR-1 body?



Unless there is something i am missing... Does MANOI AT01 have some special super powers i don't know about?

How are MANOI's KRS-4024HV servos better than KRS-786? Well they are more powerful, it would take KRS-788HV servos to match MANOI's in power.


- IF MANOI doesn't offer servo position feedback, what is more essential?
The little extra power in AT01's servos or position feedback in KHR-1's servos?



I'm really confused...

[IgorT offline]

Wait wait wait... Could it be?!?

When i look for MANOI replacement servos i find KRS-4024SHV ICS!
ICS means it does have position feedback! So if MANOI has the same servos it should offer catch-n-play functionality!

But when i look at MANOI's specs i see KRS-4024S HV.. No ICS is mentioned. With the other servos they usually mention it in the robot description cos it's important...


That's why i believed the AT01 has no position feedback. The lack of those three stupid letters.

At this moment however i am almost certain it does have it!



In this case i can easily forget about the silly KHR-1 + RoBoard kit...

The MANOI should have everything i wanted from it and more once i add the RoBoard and the gyro/accelerometer/compass boards. And of course an IR distance sensor and later probably a microscopic camera in the head. (and microphones, touch sensors, bumpers, pressure sensors and anything else i can possibly think of...)


God what an awesome robot that will be! I think i'm in Robot Heaven...


To think that i was originally considering buying the $310 KONDO remote, their 2 axis gyros and accelerometers for $230 more and then having to resort to expensive sensor expansion boards or even the Kondo Autonomous Starter Kit for yet another $260 and then possibly wouldn't even be able to write my own low level code to control it all in real-time in a language i'm familiar with (or if i could i'd likely be limited by RCB-3's low processing power)...

Was i really thinking of spending $800 to get this limited functionality?!?
I can get the robot an entire 1GHz PC brain capable of some real magic with gyros/accel./compass sensors AND a 9" LCD on top for only $660 and still have some money left to add other things, such as three additional servos, one for hip-pivot and two for lower arm rotation...

Good thing i saw the RoBoard in time!


I'm starting to drool...

[UncleBob offline]

my first impression to the question is, why is this a question. since the answer to me is very obvious.

Manoi is a ferrari and a robobuilder a honda civic in terms of normal price and quality of the servos etc.

[IgorT offline]

my first impression to the question is, why is this a question. since the answer to me is very obvious.

I can answer your question... In fact i already explained the reason for what i knew was a bizzare comparison in my original post:

The RoboBuilder has an amazing description of all it's features and capabilities as well as multiple programing options right on the kit sale page.

MANOI on the other hand has very short description with just the basic specs and no further elaboration on what it's capable of.


That's why i had all those questions i typed in bold, that so far anyone has yet to answer...

I was led to believe that the AT01 has no servo position feedback and catch-n-play functionality. I also thought (and still do) that it has poor programming options (for me, since i want to get down and dirty with it).

There were also some other concerns i had, all of which i mentioned, but are now completely gone since i'm planning to use the RoBoard for it's controller...


In any case, with RoboBuilder all it's abilities were in plain sight.
With the MANOI i had to spend two days and nights browsing the internet and searching the forums to figure out what it can or can not do due to it's poor description.

Manoi is a ferrari and a robobuilder a honda civic in terms of normal price and quality of the servos etc.

But don't worry, i am getting the Ferrari. Now that i know what is under the hood...

[funk_e offline]

A couple of days ago i was offered an old but completelly unused MANOI AT01 kit for only $800! I couldn't believe my luck! A new RCB3 alone costs as much, never mind the servos and other parts..

Let me guess.. you bought the one on ebay?

Congratulations on your purchase... I hope you enjoy your new Manoi. I have been into robots for years but mostly with Aibos and the like. I too have my eye on a Manoi, but have decided on the Kondo KHR-3HV first.

Keep us updated on your build etc.

[IgorT offline]

Heh, good guess, but no. Well kinda..

I'm not from the US so i couldn't buy it.
Instead a good friend of mine did it for me.

And i didn't even have to pay $800 as i set my max bid, there were no other bidders so i got it for the original $700.

Altho by the time it's reshipped to me it'll be ~$800...


Also i finally found the answer to a question i was so obsesessed by - it IS actually capable of realtime mixing of gyro/other sensor feedback into predetermined motions, to adjust them on the fly.


Only problem now is, i'm not planning to get the expensive Kondo sensors anymore, since i would like to upgrade its brain to a RoBoard which will give me more for less...

But with the RoBoard i fear i'll have to do everything from scratch, i was hoping to start out by using the original motion files and only make my own once i get used to it...

I'll just have to find a way to decode them and port the data onto programs i make on the RoBoard...

[veltrop offline]

IgorT:

If you go with the Roboard please use the software I've been working on:

http://taylor.veltrop.com/robotics/khrhumanoidv2.php

The software is in the form of an ROS repository.

It can handle Kondo's gyros on the AD converter. I was using those until I recently got an I2C gyro. Though I'm having problems with it and may need to go back.

It can also import poses from .RCB files.

It'll still be a challenge to use the Roboard though, don't get me wrong. But my software will get you started with all the basics.

[IgorT offline]

It would be amazing, if i could use your code, so that i would not be starting from scratch, andvinsteas i could slowly get re-acquainted with programming again!
What programming languages does ROS support oherwise? Is it an actual operating system?


However after doing more reading i came upon what RN1AsOf091407 said in his RoBoard thread: "In working with RoboIO, I realized early on that the code (servo moves, in particular) isn't really built for multitasking / multithreading. ....... Physically, the Roboard is capable of exactly what I want and more, but not when using the RoboIO RCServo code as intended."


I was quite shocked. I mean, just like him in thought the RoBoard can do everything i want and more... But, well it can, just not with the RoboIO library i fear. And your ROS software is based on it...

If i understand correctly what RN1A SAID, it would also mean that there is no way to use gyro data to manipulate the preset motions in real-time (what they call real-time mixing - something even RCB3 can do), because every action has to wait for the previous action to complete first...

Basically i would like to create among other things balancing algorithms, that would do their job regardless of what the robot is doing...
The robot would play out its motion files, but all motion data would go through the balancing algorithms first, get modified as needed to keep the robot standing at "all" times, and only then would the corrected motion commands go to the servos...


Another example would be turning while running, to correct the direction - even linked to gyro to keep the robot going straight unless commanded to turn - as opposed to having to stop to turn for every smallest adjustment...


But now i'm worried that this would be impossible, and that i would actually have to write my own servo controlling algorithms as well.

And that is something i would only know how to do in DOS...
(i really don't like Windows programming)


In any case, hoe does your ROS software integrate the servo data? Does it have to stop one motion and start another? Or even wait for the first one to complete first? What good would that be for balancing?

Or did i misunderstand what RN1A is saying? Please tell me i did...


Oh and one more question.. Do you think the RoBoard would even fit under MANOI's armor? It actually fits under the backpack of the KHR-1HV as if by magic, but the AT01 might be too curvy for it i fear...

I could make him my own plastic backpack and install it through the original one, but i'm worried about the weight...[/b]