RoboSavvy Forum

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-12-01T15:26:45+01:00

veltrop wrote:
But I can tell you that Im doing plenty of multitasking using the RoBoIO library, including mixing the gyro data for balancing.

My motion scripting setup isn't sophisticated enough to allow separate mixing for each pose, but that could easily be implemented. Currently the mixing is global. Anyway, the point is that I'm doing it with RoBoIO, you don't have to worry about it's capabilities.

Hmm, interesting... So what are the problems RN1A is referring to then? Or could it be a problem limited to Windows, that you don't notice in Linux?
Do you know of things that would be desirable but the RoBoIO can't do?

Just wanna know what i'm getting into before i spend another $500 on it...

Is the RoBoIO library available for download somewhere, or do you only get it with the purchase of the board? I was hoping to study it's functions a little first, it would help me make sure it can do everything i want....

Also, when you issue a command to a bunch of servos, can you do other things while it's playing out, or do you have to wait?
Can you issue a new set of commands to another set of servos while the first ones are still doing their thing?

Thanks for helping me out and answering my questions btw!

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:26 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T17:48:11+01:00

I think i know which MANOI video you mean.

That would be a good example of real-time mixing. The RCB-3 can do that.
H2H has two options for it - Motion Interrupt, to stand up after falling and Real-time Mixing, to balance while performing motions...

I don't know how RCB3 does it exactly, what bothers me is that i'd have no direct control over it or that i couldn't write my own programs for it like one can with many other robots...

If i had the option of direct programming, creating the motion control algorithms would definitely be a challenge, but one i would have fun trying to solve..

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:48 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T17:24:43+01:00

Sorry I don't know anything about fitting the Roboard on a Manoi.

But I can tell you that Im doing plenty of multitasking using the RoBoIO library, including mixing the gyro data for balancing.

My motion scripting setup isn't sophisticated enough to allow separate mixing for each pose, but that could easily be implemented. Currently the mixing is global. Anyway, the point is that I'm doing it with RoBoIO, you don't have to worry about it's capabilities.

I'd love to see if there are performance gains using RN1's code, but I probably won't mess with Windows on the Roboard. If a Linux variant was available I'd certainly give it a try. The code in my repository is abstracted well enough that the bottom layer can be changed out without too much work.

And you have the benefit of trying both of our code bases

To answer your questions about ROS it fully supports C++ and Python. I think there is some limited functionality for other languages. It's not an operating system for the computer, Linux handles that part. It's an operating system for the Robot, running as a bunch of programs in Linux. The ROS API is a framework of algorithms and communication methods. The communication methods allow you to write many programs that interact with each other, so it helps with nice modularity and multitasking.

Definitely want to take a look at http://www.ros.org/wiki/ROS/StartGuide before jumping into ROS.

Statistics: Posted by veltrop — Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:24 pm

Gyro

2010-11-30T16:35:12+01:00

What u trying to do by correcting the movement with the gyro I have done similar thing with the Bioloid premium offset function. The best I can come up is to balance after each step in the interval. Doing it during walking is not feasible since the robot moves a lot and the gyro will give wrong data and make the robot jump.

I have seen gyro mixing in the khr2 video. Not sure how they do it. I thing manoi should have some default programming also. I have seen manoi run very fast though not sure if they been reprogram.

Statistics: Posted by UncleBob — Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:35 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T16:40:51+01:00

It would be amazing, if i could use your code, so that i would not be starting from scratch, andvinsteas i could slowly get re-acquainted with programming again!
What programming languages does ROS support oherwise? Is it an actual operating system?

However after doing more reading i came upon what RN1AsOf091407 said in his RoBoard thread: "In working with RoboIO, I realized early on that the code (servo moves, in particular) isn't really built for multitasking / multithreading. ....... Physically, the Roboard is capable of exactly what I want and more, but not when using the RoboIO RCServo code as intended."

I was quite shocked. I mean, just like him in thought the RoBoard can do everything i want and more... But, well it can, just not with the RoboIO library i fear. And your ROS software is based on it...

If i understand correctly what RN1A SAID, it would also mean that there is no way to use gyro data to manipulate the preset motions in real-time (what they call real-time mixing - something even RCB3 can do), because every action has to wait for the previous action to complete first...

Basically i would like to create among other things balancing algorithms, that would do their job regardless of what the robot is doing...
The robot would play out its motion files, but all motion data would go through the balancing algorithms first, get modified as needed to keep the robot standing at "all" times, and only then would the corrected motion commands go to the servos...

Another example would be turning while running, to correct the direction - even linked to gyro to keep the robot going straight unless commanded to turn - as opposed to having to stop to turn for every smallest adjustment...

But now i'm worried that this would be impossible, and that i would actually have to write my own servo controlling algorithms as well.

And that is something i would only know how to do in DOS...
(i really don't like Windows programming)

In any case, hoe does your ROS software integrate the servo data? Does it have to stop one motion and start another? Or even wait for the first one to complete first? What good would that be for balancing?

Or did i misunderstand what RN1A is saying? Please tell me i did...

Oh and one more question.. Do you think the RoBoard would even fit under MANOI's armor? It actually fits under the backpack of the KHR-1HV as if by magic, but the AT01 might be too curvy for it i fear...

I could make him my own plastic backpack and install it through the original one, but i'm worried about the weight...[/b]

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T09:45:40+01:00

IgorT:

If you go with the Roboard please use the software I've been working on:

http://taylor.veltrop.com/robotics/khrhumanoidv2.php

The software is in the form of an ROS repository.

It can handle Kondo's gyros on the AD converter. I was using those until I recently got an I2C gyro. Though I'm having problems with it and may need to go back.

It can also import poses from .RCB files.

It'll still be a challenge to use the Roboard though, don't get me wrong. But my software will get you started with all the basics.

Statistics: Posted by veltrop — Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:45 am

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T03:18:20+01:00

Heh, good guess, but no. Well kinda..

I'm not from the US so i couldn't buy it.
Instead a good friend of mine did it for me.

And i didn't even have to pay $800 as i set my max bid, there were no other bidders so i got it for the original $700.

Altho by the time it's reshipped to me it'll be ~$800...

Also i finally found the answer to a question i was so obsesessed by - it IS actually capable of realtime mixing of gyro/other sensor feedback into predetermined motions, to adjust them on the fly.

Only problem now is, i'm not planning to get the expensive Kondo sensors anymore, since i would like to upgrade its brain to a RoBoard which will give me more for less...

But with the RoBoard i fear i'll have to do everything from scratch, i was hoping to start out by using the original motion files and only make my own once i get used to it...

I'll just have to find a way to decode them and port the data onto programs i make on the RoBoard...

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:18 am

Re: Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-30T01:58:55+01:00

IgorT wrote:
A couple of days ago i was offered an old but completelly unused MANOI AT01 kit for only $800! I couldn't believe my luck! A new RCB3 alone costs as much, never mind the servos and other parts..

Let me guess.. you bought the one on ebay?

Congratulations on your purchase... I hope you enjoy your new Manoi. I have been into robots for years but mostly with Aibos and the like. I too have my eye on a Manoi, but have decided on the Kondo KHR-3HV first.

Keep us updated on your build etc.

Statistics: Posted by funk_e — Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:58 am

Re: first

2010-11-26T12:49:45+01:00

UncleBob wrote:
my first impression to the question is, why is this a question. since the answer to me is very obvious.

I can answer your question... In fact i already explained the reason for what i knew was a bizzare comparison in my original post:

The RoboBuilder has an amazing description of all it's features and capabilities as well as multiple programing options right on the kit sale page.

MANOI on the other hand has very short description with just the basic specs and no further elaboration on what it's capable of.

That's why i had all those questions i typed in bold, that so far anyone has yet to answer...

I was led to believe that the AT01 has no servo position feedback and catch-n-play functionality. I also thought (and still do) that it has poor programming options (for me, since i want to get down and dirty with it).

There were also some other concerns i had, all of which i mentioned, but are now completely gone since i'm planning to use the RoBoard for it's controller...

In any case, with RoboBuilder all it's abilities were in plain sight.
With the MANOI i had to spend two days and nights browsing the internet and searching the forums to figure out what it can or can not do due to it's poor description.

UncleBob wrote:
Manoi is a ferrari and a robobuilder a honda civic in terms of normal price and quality of the servos etc.

But don't worry, i am getting the Ferrari. Now that i know what is under the hood...

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:49 pm

first

2010-11-26T12:18:55+01:00

my first impression to the question is, why is this a question. since the answer to me is very obvious.

Manoi is a ferrari and a robobuilder a honda civic in terms of normal price and quality of the servos etc.

Statistics: Posted by UncleBob — Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:18 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-26T12:37:56+01:00

Wait wait wait... Could it be?!?

When i look for MANOI replacement servos i find KRS-4024SHV ICS!
ICS means it does have position feedback! So if MANOI has the same servos it should offer catch-n-play functionality!

But when i look at MANOI's specs i see KRS-4024S HV.. No ICS is mentioned. With the other servos they usually mention it in the robot description cos it's important...

That's why i believed the AT01 has no position feedback. The lack of those three stupid letters.

At this moment however i am almost certain it does have it!

In this case i can easily forget about the silly KHR-1 + RoBoard kit...

The MANOI should have everything i wanted from it and more once i add the RoBoard and the gyro/accelerometer/compass boards. And of course an IR distance sensor and later probably a microscopic camera in the head. (and microphones, touch sensors, bumpers, pressure sensors and anything else i can possibly think of...)

God what an awesome robot that will be! I think i'm in Robot Heaven...

To think that i was originally considering buying the $310 KONDO remote, their 2 axis gyros and accelerometers for $230 more and then having to resort to expensive sensor expansion boards or even the Kondo Autonomous Starter Kit for yet another $260 and then possibly wouldn't even be able to write my own low level code to control it all in real-time in a language i'm familiar with (or if i could i'd likely be limited by RCB-3's low processing power)...

Was i really thinking of spending $800 to get this limited functionality?!?
I can get the robot an entire 1GHz PC brain capable of some real magic with gyros/accel./compass sensors AND a 9" LCD on top for only $660 and still have some money left to add other things, such as three additional servos, one for hip-pivot and two for lower arm rotation...

Good thing i saw the RoBoard in time!

I'm starting to drool...

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:13 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-26T12:02:30+01:00

Tyberius wrote:
Strictly performance wise, a Manoi/Kondo bot will wipe the floor with a Robobuilder. They aren't even in the same league, a Manoi/Kondo is physically a superior robot.

Hehe, thank you!

That's the excuse i was looking for... I'm getting the MANOI!

Eventually i'll probably also get the RoboBuilder and build a dog or a spider with a 1GHz brain and pretend AI...

At the moment i am completelly enchanted by the RoBoard thing. Almost more than with the MANOI itself! An AT01 with the RoBoard has to be one of the most amazing robots ever!

But while i'm very grateful for the pep-talk, there are still many questions left unanswered - like most of the bolded stuff in the first two posts...

And then i have additional questions:
- Does the MANOI AT01 even support catch-n-play or any kind of servo position feedback? I was already almost sure it doesn't but then the RoBoard manuals kept talking about reading PWM servo positions and now i'm confused again...

- Would a RoBoard fit into the MANOI's pretty body shells? Did anyone try?

- Does MANOI's RCB-3 controller support any kind of low level programming at all, in the sense that for example a C++ program would be loaded into it and it would execute it, controlling motions and balancing adjustments in real time? I thought the RCB-3 API with it's C++ support meant just this, but then i realized it was for PC control of the RCB-3?!?

And last but not least. I just had to look around the RoboSavvy page again and stumble upon this special offer!

Oh my god, it's almost exactly the same thing as what i want to build except without the pretty white body shells..

And this one actually does offer servo position feedback and catch-n-play motion programming! (With the MANOI i'm still not sure...)

And it costs less than what i was going to pay for the MANOI later tonight and already has the RoBoard that would cost me $300+ on top!

If it was possible to attach MANOI's white body shells onto the KHR-1 body, this possibly would have been my ideal robot at a lower cost!

- Is it possible to attach MANOI's body shell onto a KHR-1 body?

Unless there is something i am missing... Does MANOI AT01 have some special super powers i don't know about?

How are MANOI's KRS-4024HV servos better than KRS-786? Well they are more powerful, it would take KRS-788HV servos to match MANOI's in power.

- IF MANOI doesn't offer servo position feedback, what is more essential?
The little extra power in AT01's servos or position feedback in KHR-1's servos?

I'm really confused...

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:02 pm

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-26T08:46:09+01:00

Strictly performance wise, a Manoi/Kondo bot will wipe the floor with a Robobuilder. They aren't even in the same league, a Manoi/Kondo is physically a superior robot.

The software for a Manoi may have a steeper learning curve, but it's at least still being developed and pushed forward, and is pretty comprehensive. The software for Robobuilder is TERRIBLE, and has laid dormant in terms of development for close to 2 years now.

Statistics: Posted by Tyberius — Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:46 am

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-26T02:15:17+01:00

Orac wrote:
Hi,

As per above, you really need to decide what you want out of it.

I have a Manoi and it is not for the faint hearted.

Thanks for taking the time to answer me...

I told as much as possible about myself in the above reply, but i did ask some concrete questions before that.

I marked all my questions in the first two posts by bolding them.

If someone could help answer some of them i would appreciate it very much!

Otherwise what i want from my robot is mostly programming autonomous behavior and trying to create advanced balancing algorithms for it. I would like the program to continuously run my balance program in the background and adjust the servos regardless of whether the robot is standing still, running or standing on one leg. I've already partially created some methods for this in my head while daydreaming about these robots - that's how obsessed i got with them.

I know it's gonna be hard, but that's what i like about programming..

Also nice to meet another MANOI owner! I may bother you with questions in the future if you don't mind..
In the meanwhile, could you perhaps provide an english construction manual for the MANOI and/or any other hard to find english files?

Otherwise, how often do you have to replace the servos? Did you upgrade any of them to higher torque models?

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:15 am

Deciding between MANOI AT01 and RoboBuilder (URGENT!)

2010-11-26T02:03:09+01:00

First of all, thanks for your replies guys! Appreciate it a lot!

i-Bot wrote:
While I could say which I myself would choose, it would still be a difficult choice between an $800 Manoi/KHR and a Robobuilder.

It is a hard choice, isn't it? I wouldn't have thought if it wasn't for me having "settled" for the RoboBuilder and gotten used to it's fancy features... If the first thing i saw was the $800 MANOI i would not have even heard of the RoboBuilder at this time...

i-Bot wrote:
To help you support your decision process we really need to know more about your own capabilities and interests.

Right, i should have explained more... Here goes:

i-Bot wrote:
Do you want to compete ? Make videos ?, Entertain ?

I am not really into competitions, besides in my country there are none that i know of.

My main goal is to entertain - myself - by solving complex and hard programing challenges.

I used to program for fun when i was in high school. I was very good at it at that time, but fell out of shape in recent years.
A robot would give me a new opportunity to practice programing for fun, get back in shape and learn more about programing than i have before...

i-Bot wrote:
Are you into mechanics/construction/modifications ?

Totally! For me that's the fun part!

i-Bot wrote:
Do you have the patience and skill to develop advanced moves and motions yourself, or do you want these out of the box ?

Yes. Initially i would want canned motions, but as i said, one of my wishes is to create powerful balancing algorithms that can work even during other motions by modifying motion data in real-time.

I would use original motions, i would change them as needed and i would like to create my own as well...

i-Bot wrote:
Do you want to develop the electronics (sensors etc.) ?

If i have to, i have no problem with it, i develope and build certain electronic devices at work... But mostly i'd just use the available sensors / gyros / accelerometers / whatever, unless what i needed wasn't available...

i-Bot wrote:
Have you any embedded programming skills or interest ?

You mean MCU programing? Some, but very little. But it wouldn't take me long to learn if i had C++ support... And it's one of the things i would really love to master. And a robot is the perfect opportunity...

i-Bot wrote:
What are your software skills ?

You mean using various software? Very good. I've been playing with computers since i was like 5 or so...

i-Bot wrote:
Are you Windows or Linux ?

I'm a Windows user. But if you are asking about programing again i would have to say "DOS"...
To be honest, the l last time i did complex programing was when the fastest PCs were 100-133MHz Pentium I's.

At that time i had a 66MHz 486 and in my spare time i was programing (among other things) reasonably good (for that time) real-time 3D graphics engines on it for fun.

The hard part was keeping the graphics smooth once the scenes got complex, shaded or even textured, a 66MHz 486 is somewhat limited in that respect (too bad we didn't have 3GHz CPUs and 3D graphics accelerators at that time, life would have been fun! ).

But like i said, i kinda fell out of programming in later years.
The last thing i did was a simple program that decoded sensor measurements from an external device (a device i had to design for a customer) and plotted the data graphically on screen. But that was barely worth mentioning, so i (sadly) consider myself not to have done any serious programming in many years now...

But i believe i could get back in shape very quickly if i set my mind to it and had a robot to motivate me...

Umm, in those years i was using first Turbo Pascal and then C++.. That's why i badly want the robot to allow C++ programing.

i-Bot wrote:
Both are a little off the current "main stream" humanoid choices, do you care ? if this gives you a good value robot.

I couldn't care less what is currently mainstream. I love the MANOI robot and i really like the RoboBuilder. I think both are great and will probably buy the MANOI now and the RoboBuilder in a month or two so i'll have both.

The only thing i'm trying to figure out is if it really is a good idea to jump on the MANOI now...

But i did some more research and reading and i found that the RCB3 is programmable with C / C++, so most of my worries are now gone.

Also i've been looking at the Roboard thing and accessories and realized that it can replace the brains of the MANOI with a powerful 1GHz computer!
And with all the added Gyro/Accel/Sensor boards and even the LCD that thing would shockingly cost less than certain Kondo accessories i was planning to buy.

And a 1GHz PC is something i know i can program and it could easily run any and all projects i can make up for a robot (at least for now)...

But obviously i'm gonna start out with the RCB3 controller and learn to program that, so i learn a few new things. If/when i decide to upgrade to the Roboard i will try to port whatever i create by then and of course add more abilities...

My main concern was the possibility to program the controller in a language familiar to me. Now that i found out it's possible i'm quite happy and decided to get the MANOI.

I'll just go back over my own original questions one more time to see if there is something else i need to know or if i thought of additional questions....

One thing i forgot to ask earlier:
I was looking at the KHR-2HV robot and it says it's servos have position feedback, cos you can move the robot and the software records how you moved it and creates motion files out of it...

I read again and again that the MANOI is based on or even identical to the KHR-2HV robot. But i know the MANOI uses different (much more exypensive) servos...

So i am almost praying to hear "yes" to this question, even tho i fear it's not so:
- Can MANOI AT01 provide servo position feedback like the KHR-2HV, or are the double priced MANOI servos for some reason not capable of this?!?

KHR-2HV has the same RCB3 but it's servos are digital. I'm afraid MANOI doesn't have this ability, but then again i didn't expect it anyway. Just the KHR-2HV listing confused me...

Too bad...

Statistics: Posted by IgorT — Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:03 am