RoboSavvy Forum

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-02-08T11:19:23+01:00

Hi l3v3rz

From our experience it's a bit hard to brick these boards although we've had a couple that locked up when getting to the bootloader.

From what we've seen, you should always be able to see something coming out of the serial port of the Omnima when you turn it on (it may later crash but it typically doesn't go down without spitting out some characters first).
The boards that we managed to "kill" always showed something when they booted but locked up when getting to the bootloader.

Therefore my best bet would be to check the USB2Serial adapter and also the cables. (not sure which USB2Serial you are using though; to be honest we don't like the Cable from Omnima and prefer the generic USB2TTL from Sparkfun based on FTDI)
You also need to make sure to connect GND (~~we've done some experiments with connections between omnima and other devices that worked fine without gnd connected but when using a USb2Serial we seem to always need GND~~ Edit: I stand corrected. you always need to connect GND. What happens is that sometimes you're using a common ground without noticing it; a typical scenario is a computer that is grounded by the wall plug and a peripheral (ie robot) that is also ground by the PSU connected to the wall socket (hence common ground). ).

Another fault we've seen was with jumper cables that "seem" to be ok upon visual inspection but they were actually faulty (replacing them solved the issue).

Finally, I would check the COM port settings... I know this is a basic one but just as reminder, on boot it should be set to 57600, 8 data bits, no parity1 stop bit (8N1).
This should let you "see" the bootloading process.

Let us know how it goes

Regards
Pedro

Statistics: Posted by PedroR — Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:19 am

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-02-07T20:08:43+01:00

This was going ok , I had the board auto connecting to my local wifi hub. I'd edited the files in /etc/config to get things working and the only issue I had was that the routing table wasn't quite right on boot up - if I manually edited it to remove some default routes being auto added it worked. I'd simplified the devices as well to just eth0, wlan0 and lo (dropping all the bridging lans).

But then on a power recycle the serial just stopped working. The USB converter flashes when I send a character but I'm getting no output? The board appears to be running - green light comes on at reboot etc just no serial? Not sure if its bricked in some way or hardware failure -???

Statistics: Posted by l3v3rz — Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:08 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-31T12:55:46+01:00

Hi

To keep things coherent i posted the updated pictures in the
Robobuilder Linuxified - adding an embedded linux board topic.

Regards

Statistics: Posted by MarcoP — Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:55 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-30T19:56:20+01:00

Hi l3v3rz

We posted a firmware image here http://robosavvy.com/RoboSavvyPages/Omn ... Firmwares/ that includes the latest Luci configuration interface.

It offers a very neat (graphical) way to set up all the interfaces including WAN connection as client to a home network. It also offers a Graphical view to opkg and HDD usage.
(Luci should be available by pointing your web browser to the board's IP address).

The latest batch we got from Omnima should have come preloaded with this but in any case users can download and flash the image themselves.

The image was built specifically for the Linuxified project so it includes the necessary kernel subcomponents to install UVC (not sure if it's pre installed already) as well as mjpeg streamer and python.

It also includes the latest Luci which offers that Graphical configuration interface (I believe you just need to connect tot he board over Ethernet and open the board's IP on your browser).
The only bit I don't recall is if you need to set your LAN to a static IP address (and which) or if it will automatically assign one. (I think you need to set your PC manually to 192.168.1.40 for example and then try http://192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.254). -- let us know how this goes!

As a side note, we've 3D printed a box to send you and also included a wCk cable already soldered to the Voltage Regulator and witha DC barrel jack on the other so you can power the omnima directly from any connector on the wCK bus. (we should be shipping it to you in a couple of days as this is in the Lab not the WH)

We've made another set for ourselves and I'll post some pictures tomorrow about this.
It's a very neat approach for Power Supply. no hassle with batteries or anything; you can even hotplug and unplug the Wall Adapter if the battery is low and the Omnima will just keep running.

Regards
Pedro.

Statistics: Posted by PedroR — Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:56 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-30T15:20:43+01:00

That's great thanks!

Got a cheap webcam working with it this weekend (Just £3.90 inc P&P!!) - connects using UVC and works with mjpg streamer with -y option

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290653852233? ... 189wt_1137

Also tried to build octave but got stuck at the moment with libfortran. I'm sure its surmountable - just need to find the right sources.

One problem I have is that udhcpc always freezes and never detects my network - using ethernet at moment with static IP. I would like to go wireless and have the card connect to my local wifi homehub and use dhcp to get an IP address, any tips on what setup to use ??

cheers

Statistics: Posted by l3v3rz — Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:20 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-27T18:41:05+01:00

Hi l3v3rz

Just to clarify things, when we were doing the tests we had a common ground between the RBC and the converter.

Will check the levels more closely to confirm the TTL/CMOS issue.

I will be preparing the kit to send to you. Planning on modifying a wCK cable to splice off power to a 5V regulator to power the Omnima

Regards

Statistics: Posted by MarcoP — Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:41 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T17:15:37+01:00

One un-documented is it can run at 230Kbs rather than 115Kbs by booting and holding down PF1 (I think). This only affects comms between PC/board and RBC not RBC and servos, but will cut down latency

Thanks for the tip
Unfortunately afaik the Omnima Serial port will only go up to 115kbps so we are unable to take advantage of that for the time being...

Its a real shame the RBC box isn't just a few mm deeper other wise it would have been a perfect fit. I'd be interested to try one of your white boxes. Power from the wck Bus is a great idea - does it still need voltage reg or is direct connect?

Now that the 3d design for the RBC + Omnima case has been finalized (we finally sorted out all the minor tweaks last week) we'd be happy to send you one for Beta Testing. I will ask Marco to print one and for you and have it shipped.
They're still being printed in white as it's the cheapest plastic we have so it's ideal for mock ups. The final version should be either Black, Translucent (PLA) or maybe Red; it's still unknown but we're open to suggestions
My personal favourite would be Translucent PLA but PLA doesn't behave as well as ABS...

With regards to Powering, we still need to use a regulator to power the Omnima.
Although the Omnima could take the 8.4V directly from the wCK bus, power to USB peripherals is unregulated so the board would survive but we'd kill any USB device we attempted to connect to the board.

What we do is: wCK cable (just with Vdd and GND from the wCK bus) -------> 5V Voltage Regulator -----> Omnima Board

The 5V voltage regulators we use are typically UBECs. These come from RC world I think, they're quite cheap, and can typically take up to 15V and output a stable 5V 2A-3A.
(an ebay search for UBEC should show you the light )

I think the RT3050 does not have a hardware fpu, and Octave uses fp for most calculations. I did not find Lua worked very well on the miniEMBwifi and assumed that was due to the lack of fpu.

Again afaik there is no FPU on the RALINK but since it's a very specialized chip I'm not sure what kind of optimizations may be in there (or missing).

Our biggest challenge with scripting languages on the Omnima is the ROM size though.

RAM is 32Mb but permanent storage (ROM) is only 8Mb out of which ~3.2Mb are used by the OpenWRT installation.

We tried installing Python (and managed to do so) but little to no space was left after installing. The solution on the Omnima is to use a USB thumb drive to add usb external storage.

We also have another product in our Lab based on the same RALINK RT3050 chip called Carambola: http://www.8devices.com/product/3/wi-fi-4-things
Carambola comes as a single module that breaks out all the processor pins.

This has good things and bad things:
- We can access the 2x COMM ports: one can be kept for console and the second one is free (and clean) to communicate with other peripherals.
The Omnima only exposes 1 UART and even if you detach the console there's still garbage coming out when booting (bootloader messages and similar boot information).
After booting the UART is free though.

- We can access the SPI pins on Carambola which means - in theory - we can attach an SD card slot and mount an SD card as filesystem to extend storage capacity.
There is some support in OpenWRT to do this but on Carambola there seem to be issues still (also performance seems to be significantly impacted depending on the driver and approach used)

- A major upside is that the WiFi Antenna is a Chip Antenna. For a mobile application - and if you don't require huge coverage - this is very good. The bulky antenna on the Omnima really gets in the way, especially on a humanoid (on Robobuilder for example it reduces some of the mobility on one of the Shoulders).

- The downside though is that Carambola is only a kind of "breakout board" for the RT3050 and you can't really do anything very useful unless you develop your own custom PCB.
The unsorted issues with mounting an SD card using SPI are also a downside at the moment still.

For these reasons we're continuing development and supporting the RALINK implementation on the Omnima but we're keeping an eye out for developments around Carambola.

Pedro.

Statistics: Posted by PedroR — Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:15 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T12:53:07+01:00

I am interested to hear how well Ocatve works on miniEmbwifi. I think the RT3050 does not have a hardware fpu, and Octave uses fp for most calculations. I did not find Lua worked very well on the miniEMBwifi and assumed that was due to the lack of fpu.

Statistics: Posted by i-Bot — Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:53 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T11:11:56+01:00

This looks a really cool project ! I got my miniEmbwifi for Xmas. Its a real shame the RBC box isn't just a few mm deeper other wise it would have been a perfect fit. I'd be interested to try one of your white boxes. Power from the wck Bus is a great idea - does it still need voltage reg or is direct connect?

Thanks for the nice words about DCMP. One un-documented is it can run at 230Kbs rather than 115Kbs by booting and holding down PF1 (I think). This only affects comms between PC/board and RBC not RBC and servos, but will cut down latency

Just thought, I'm not an electrical engineer - but don't you need to also connect the earths together as well as RX and TX?? - the floating earths could explain your problem with detecting smaller 3.3v signal.

I have also built by linux version of Basic - which talks to DCMP - as an OpenWRT package and that runs fine on minEmb. I'd really like to get Octave (language favoured by Stanford and Andrew Ng) as I have a Otcave plugin that talks to DCMP as well.

cheers

Statistics: Posted by l3v3rz — Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:11 am

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T10:51:22+01:00

The wCK bus is 5V CMOS, not 5V TTL so Vin high minimum should be 0.6Vcc (3.0V), maybe the 3.3V high drive from the Linux board is a bit low.

Hi i-Bot

Interesting piece of information that we were not aware of.

Thank you for the heads up and as you say it probably explains it.

Regards
Pedro

Statistics: Posted by PedroR — Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:51 am

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T03:35:44+01:00

i-Bot wrote:
For the wCK connectors, I have used the headers and connectors from Tyco with success. The pins are a pain to crimp and expensive, so I still prefer to cut a long ready made cable. It is easy to use the headers on a small PCB, but they are not 0.1" pitch, so will not fit on perf board.

Thanks for the heads-up.

I used 5V FTDI direct to the wCK bus without problems. FTDI chips can be linked for 3.3V or 5V I/O and some boards allow this to be changed or specified at purchase. I never got the wCK bus to work error free with any driver at 921.6K, but no problem at 460.8K. The wCK bus is 5V CMOS, not 5V TTL so Vin high minimum should be 0.6Vcc (3.0V), maybe the 3.3V high drive from the Linux board is a bit low.

That would explain it. From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:
The CMOS–TTL logic level problem
Interconnecting any two logic families often required special techniques such as additional pull-up resistors, or purpose-built interface circuits, since the logic families may use different voltage levels to represent 1 and 0 states, and may have other interface requirements only met within the logic family.
TTL logic levels are different from those of CMOS – generally a TTL output does not rise high enough to be reliably recognized as a logic 1 by a CMOS input. This problem was solved by the invention of the 74HCT family of devices that uses CMOS technology but TTL input logic levels. These devices only work with a 5V power supply. They form a replacement for TTL, although HCT is slower than original TTL (HC logic has about the same speed as original TTL).

This is also interesting: http://www.interfacebus.com/voltage_threshold.html

I didn't use the RBC in my configuration because the gait engine (DARwin), and my interpolation of the Robobuilder moves were done on Linux board anyway and I didn't want the added latency of the RBC.

Interesting. I'll have to see if the latency is going to be an issue for me or whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

Statistics: Posted by ParanoidAndroid — Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:35 am

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-26T00:37:55+01:00

For the wCK connectors, I have used the headers and connectors from Tyco with success. The pins are a pain to crimp and expensive, so I still prefer to cut a long ready made cable. It is easy to use the headers on a small PCB, but they are not 0.1" pitch, so will not fit on perf board.

I used 5V FTDI direct to the wCK bus without problems. FTDI chips can be linked for 3.3V or 5V I/O and some boards allow this to be changed or specified at purchase. I never got the wCK bus to work error free with any driver at 921.6K, but no problem at 460.8K. The wCK bus is 5V CMOS, not 5V TTL so Vin high minimum should be 0.6Vcc (3.0V), maybe the 3.3V high drive from the Linux board is a bit low.

I didn't use the RBC in my configuration because the gait engine (DARwin), and my interpolation of the Robobuilder moves were done on Linux board anyway and I didn't want the added latency of the RBC.

Statistics: Posted by i-Bot — Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:37 am

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-25T19:54:10+01:00

In any case both solutions are possible and produce exactly the same result.

OK, thanks.

You just need to pay attention when selecting the model: Make sure you purchase one that outputs TTL levels at 5V.

Thanks, I figured that out just after I posted!

What I attempted to explain in the first post is:

1) The Robobuilder servos are not like most 5V TTL devices that can detect 3.3V logic.
In the case of Robobuilder servos/wck bus you REALLY need to be using 5V TTL signals for the commands to be received.

Understood. Should be interesting playing around with these servos. Seem to have a lot of advantages over other comparable servos if you don't need higher torques.

Statistics: Posted by ParanoidAndroid — Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:54 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-25T19:33:33+01:00

To clarify, in the future, if I want to connect an embedded Linux board to the RBC controller, you suggest the USB->TTL->RX/TX on Bluetooth socket solution.

However, can you explain why it is not feasible to use the RoboBuilder supplied serial cable that plugs straight into the RBC controller? i.e. by putting a serial port on the Linux board to connect the cable to.

It is definitely feasible to use the supplied Serial Cable as well.

The reason to use the BT socket + TTL converter is just size: in case your app doesn't have a native DB9 port, using a USB to TTL converter is usually a smaller and lighter setup compared to using bulkier USB to DB9 adapters.

In any case both solutions are possible and produce exactly the same result.

Back to your initial post, on 1) Is it possible that the firmware on the wCK servo modules simply ignores <5V signals? If it is firmware then this could potentially be rectified right?

I would still like to see if I can connect wCK servos directly to a PC using a USB to FTDI cable for situations where using the RBC controller is really not needed/wanted in the setup e.g. a simple 2 servo tilt/pan arrangement.

But, according to your first post, I can't use the USB to TTL converter because the 3.3V signals will be ignored....so what's the solution?

The reason for not detecting <5V signals is probably hardware related.

In any case and just to clarify it is possible to communicate directly with the wCK bus/servos using a USB to TTL adapter.

You just need to pay attention when selecting the model: Make sure you purchase one that outputs TTL levels at 5V.

What I attempted to explain in the first post is:

1) The Robobuilder servos are not like most 5V TTL devices that can detect 3.3V logic.
In the case of Robobuilder servos/wck bus you REALLY need to be using 5V TTL signals for the commands to be received.

2) As a consequence of 1) you need to be careful when choosing your USb to TTL adapter because those advertised as "compatible with both 3.3V and 5V TTL logic probably won't work; it doesn't mean it's impossible to talk directly to the servos.

What you'll need is something like this http://robosavvy.com/store/product_info ... ts_id/1296 that specifically "speaks" at 5V.

With this you can definitely talk directly from the PC to the servos without needing the RBC controller.

Pedro

Statistics: Posted by PedroR — Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:33 pm

Using TTL Level Signals/Communication on wCK Bus & BT So

2012-01-25T18:56:11+01:00

Hi, thanks for your feedback.

You make a good case for using the RBC Controller instead of going with another solution in many cases.

To clarify, in the future, if I want to connect an embedded Linux board to the RBC controller, you suggest the USB->TTL->RX/TX on Bluetooth socket solution.

However, can you explain why it is not feasible to use the RoboBuilder-supplied serial cable that plugs straight into the RBC controller? i.e. by putting a serial port on the Linux board to connect the cable to.

RE: DCMP firmware

This is definitely something I had studied and was planning to make use of - perhaps with some additional enhancements. Still, I'm a long way from looking at that too but thanks for the reminder.

Back to your initial post, on 1) Is it possible that the firmware on the wCK servo modules simply ignores <5V signals? If it is firmware then this could potentially be rectified right?

I would still like to see if I can connect wCK servos directly to a PC using a USB to FTDI cable for situations where using the RBC controller is really not needed/wanted in the setup e.g. a simple 2 servo tilt/pan arrangement.

But, according to your first post, I can't use the USB to TTL converter because the 3.3V signals will be ignored....so what's the solution?

PS.

I think i-Bot located suitable headers for the wCK cables here:
http://robosavvy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2705

Statistics: Posted by ParanoidAndroid — Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:56 pm