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<title>RoboSavvy Forum</title>
<subtitle>Robosavvy Forum: The largest online community of Humanoid Robot Builders</subtitle>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/index.php" />
<updated>2007-01-08T19:20:35+01:00</updated>

<author><name><![CDATA[RoboSavvy Forum]]></name></author>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/feed.php?f=5&amp;t=902</id>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[Juha]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T19:20:35+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T19:20:35+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5896#p5896</id>
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<title type="html"><![CDATA[AX-12 power]]></title>

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<blockquote><div><cite>JonHylands wrote:</cite><br />I do not believe this is the case. The AX-12s have a voltage regulator in them to run the electronics, but the motor speed/torque is not adjusted.<br /><br />If you look at the specifications chart on page 3 of the AX-12 manual, it clearly states different values for max holding torque and rotation speed between 7 and 10 volts.<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />Jon, I should have been more exact... naturally, the maximum values are affected by the voltage they get. What I ment, was that for example if you ask ax12 to turn at certain speed, it turn at same speed if you use have 7V or 10V (within possible max speeds the voltage allows).<br /><br />BTW, about the original question, ax12 registry values for min and max voltages (registrys 12 and 13) seem to be 6V and 19V. So this also indicates, that voltages &gt;10V should be ok.<br /><br /><blockquote><div><cite>JonHylands wrote:</cite><br />With respect to not letting the battery get below 9 volts: ....<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />Yeah, I guess there are number of ways for doing this, I'll still have to think which one would work best for me.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=284">Juha</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:20 pm</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[Pev]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T16:19:45+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T16:19:45+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5882#p5882</id>
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<blockquote><div><cite>Juha wrote:</cite><br />Pev, thanks for the info on the fuse. I was meaning to ask about it or try to figure it you myself. If the fuse is rated 5A, and it sits between battery and everything else, I have 2 questions:<br /><br />1) I guess the current in the bus can be higher then, 'cause of the capasitors?<br />2) So is there no fuse protecting the system, when you run the bioloid with the charger?<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />Well I am guessing the same as you for number 1.<br /><br />As for number 2, if you remove the fuse the CM-5 and AX-12s will still run when the power pack (charger) is plugged in but everything dies as soon as you unplug it - so no power from the battery.<br /><br />Pev<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=88">Pev</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:19 pm</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[billyzelsnack]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T15:37:14+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T15:37:14+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5880#p5880</id>
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<title type="html"><![CDATA[AX-12 power]]></title>

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Some more random lipo infos.<br /><br />Lipos have an extra stat that most battery don't bother mentioning. That is discharge rate ( C ). I'll just give some examples to show how it works..<br /><br />A 10C 1000mah pack has a discharge rate of 10amps<br />A 20C 1000mah pack has a discharge rate of 20amps<br />A 20C 2000mah pack has a discharge rate of 40amps<br /><br />Often a manufacturer will mention both the maximum continuous discharge rate and the maximum burst discharge rate.<br /><br />8C and 10C packs can be had for pretty cheap now. 15C started showing up at reasonable prices in the end of last year. 20C packs are starting to become reasonable now.<br /><br />Lipo packs can be placed in both series and parallel.<br /><br />3s ( 3 cells in series )<br />3s1p ( 3 cells in series, 1 in parallel)<br /><br />Most lipos are recommended to be charged at no more than 1C and ALWAYS use a lipo specific charger. <br /><br />Lipos do not have a memory, so you can recharge whenever and without cycling.<br /><br />There is some debate to what is a good minimum voltage level is. The current recommended is No less than 3.2V per cell. Note. I said per cell. So while that means 9.6V for a 3s pack, what really matters is that no cell falls below 3.2V.<br /><br />As for sizes, there are many different options. Especially if you are willing to build your own packs and keep the cells separate.<br /><br />Something else to keep in mind.. Lipos are potentially a LOT more dangerous than NIMH. ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.liposack.com">http://www.liposack.com</a><!-- m --> )<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=459">billyzelsnack</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:37 pm</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[JonHylands]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T14:05:57+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T14:05:57+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5879#p5879</id>
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<blockquote><div><cite>Juha wrote:</cite><br />There is absolutely no point in using _regulated_ voltage for the bioloid 3-wire bus. That's just waste of energy. Especially, since my understanding is that ax-12s adjust to the voltage they get. So, if you tell them to move at certain speed / set torque etc, it will be the same if the voltage is 10V or 8V.<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />I do not believe this is the case. The AX-12s have a voltage regulator in them to run the electronics, but the motor speed/torque is not adjusted.<br /><br />If you look at the specifications chart on page 3 of the AX-12 manual, it clearly states different values for max holding torque and rotation speed between 7 and 10 volts.<br /><br />With respect to not letting the battery get below 9 volts: Run the battery voltage through a resistor divider, with the appropriate shift so that 12.6 volts on the input side ends up being less than 5 volts, and then run the output side into one of the A/D converters on whatever micro-controller you're using.<br /><br />Find the A/D value that corresponds to 9 volts on the input side, set a sefety margin, and check for that in your main loop somewhere. Have it sound a buzzer or flash a special LED or something unusual, or maybe run the ground line going to the bus through an N-channel mosfet, and switch it off when the battery power gets to that point.<br /><br />- Jon<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=373">JonHylands</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:05 pm</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[Juha]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T11:33:23+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T11:33:23+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5876#p5876</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5876#p5876"/>
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I've been studying this same issue, and also noticed that when I have the charger connected to my bioloid (not charging), I get something like 12.6V etc in the 3-wire bus going to the actuators. And I tested this from the bus, not charger, so this is the voltage actuators get.<br /><br />There was some discussion about using &gt;10V, and I think it should be ok, since also the charger is giving higher voltage for the bus. Could be, that the actuator don't last as long with 12V then 9V or something.<br /><br />My plan is to run my bioloid with 3-cell LiPo. As said earlier, when fully charged this gives you 12.6V. Also, you _must_ cut the power when the voltage drops to 9V.<br /><br />So, this way I'll have range from 9-12.6V, which seems quite nice from both battery and bioloid point of view. Only piece of electronics I need is a circuit to cut the current when voltage drops to 9V (and maybe a fuse). No regulators, no capacitors.<br /><br />There is absolutely no point in using _regulated_ voltage for the bioloid 3-wire bus. That's just waste of energy. Especially, since my understanding is that ax-12s adjust to the voltage they get. So, if you tell them to move at certain speed / set torque etc, it will be the same if the voltage is 10V or 8V.<br /><br />Also remember that the voltage on LiPo drops almost linearly. So, you must make use of as wide range as possible, or else you'll only get current for very limited time.<br /><br />I bough a dc/dc converter which gives me 9-18V -&gt; 5V regulated for the electronics (something like &gt;80% efficiency). I also have a 3.3V linear-regulator which is needed for few components, like my cameras.<br /><br />Some one asked if the LiPo can provide enough current. Oh yes, they're a lot better then nimh etc batteries. Many of them can provide something like 20A of constant current, with peaks up to 30A or 40A. So with this solution you would not even need the capacitors etc which cm-5 has to make sure there's enough current for the actuators.<br /><br /><blockquote><div><cite>NullARC wrote:</cite><br />I think our Bioloid's are going to be wearing backpacks!!  <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />Mine will <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /> Not for the battery, but electronics. Most of the LiPos are really long in one dimension. My plan is to build a bit higher torso for the robot, where I could fit 2 of these (rather in the center of the torso, not back, to keep the gravity center in the middle)<br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.verticalhobby.com/kauppa/product_info.php?cPath=1&amp;products_id=59">http://www.verticalhobby.com/kauppa/pro ... ucts_id=59</a><!-- m --> (click English flag in the lower right corner).<br /><br /><blockquote><div><cite>inaki wrote:</cite><br />According to my own tests the power supplied to AX12s by CM5 is 9.6-9.8Volts. I get the same results with two instruments.<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />But this is when you're running it with battery, right?<br /><br />Pev, thanks for the info on the fuse. I was meaning to ask about it or try to figure it you myself. If the fuse is rated 5A, and it sits between battery and everything else, I have 2 questions:<br /><br />1) I guess the current in the bus can be higher then, 'cause of the capasitors?<br />2) So is there no fuse protecting the system, when you run the bioloid with the charger?<br /><br />Cheers, and good luck for my fellow roboteers for the 2007  <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><br />-- Juha<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=284">Juha</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:33 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[inaki]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T08:37:47+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T08:37:47+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5874#p5874</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5874#p5874"/>
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According to my own tests the power supplied to AX12s by CM5 is 9.6-9.8Volts. I get the same results with two instruments.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=8">inaki</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:37 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[Pev]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T01:05:27+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T01:05:27+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5865#p5865</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5865#p5865"/>
<title type="html"><![CDATA[AX-12 power]]></title>

<content type="html" xml:base="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5865#p5865"><![CDATA[
The fuse seems to sit between the battery and everything else (even the charging curcuit). I had a servo jam in the early days when there were firmware problems and the fuse blew. It definately did its job as there was no other damage to the robot.<br /><br />I think the fuses are rated a 5 amps<br /><br />Pev<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=88">Pev</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:05 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[billyzelsnack]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-08T00:08:17+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-08T00:08:17+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5861#p5861</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5861#p5861"/>
<title type="html"><![CDATA[AX-12 power]]></title>

<content type="html" xml:base="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5861#p5861"><![CDATA[
Seems like a 12V regulator would not have to work very hard to bring down the 12.6V of a lipo. You could also just charge the lipo to 12V max.<br /><br />I think the bigger concern might be that the lipo could actually deliver the current that the servos want. Even a standard 50oz/in hobby servo can suck up 1amp when it is stalled. A chain of several AX12's might potentially be able to draw 5-10amps?? The wires and connections don't look to be rated for that high of current.<br /><br />btw. Where's that fuse in the CM-5 used and what's its rating? Maybe that is specifically what it is there for.. To limit the maximum current a chain of servos could draw.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=459">billyzelsnack</a> — Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:08 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[billyzelsnack]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-01T02:03:12+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-01T02:03:12+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5659#p5659</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5659#p5659"/>
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Some good places to buy lipos are..<br /><br />commonsenserc.com<br />helidirect.com<br />rclipos.com<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=459">billyzelsnack</a> — Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:03 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[NullARC]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-01T01:38:50+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-01T01:38:50+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5658#p5658</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5658#p5658"/>
<title type="html"><![CDATA[AX-12 power]]></title>

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<blockquote><div><cite>JonHylands wrote:</cite><br />If you want a *real* LiPoly battery <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" title="Wink" /> check this one out:<br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&amp;ProdID=473">http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?Pa ... ProdID=473</a><!-- m --><br /><br />- Jon<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />For lack of a better term HOLY CRAP!! 6350mah!! I think a Bioloid biped would run about, oh say, 5 days on that! I've never seen a batter with that many mili-amp hours! The funny thing is I've been searching that site too Jon, but I didn't see that one.  <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /> I'll need 3 though. Only about $80.00!<br /><br />169mm that's a little over 6.5 inches. I think our Bioloid's are going to be wearing backpacks!!  <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=362">NullARC</a> — Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:38 am</p><hr />
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</entry>
<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[JonHylands]]></name></author>
<updated>2007-01-01T00:11:55+01:00</updated>
<published>2007-01-01T00:11:55+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5657#p5657</id>
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If you want a *real* LiPoly battery <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" title="Wink" /> check this one out:<br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&amp;ProdID=473">http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?Pa ... ProdID=473</a><!-- m --><br /><br />- Jon<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=373">JonHylands</a> — Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:11 am</p><hr />
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<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[NullARC]]></name></author>
<updated>2006-12-31T22:43:47+01:00</updated>
<published>2006-12-31T22:43:47+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5656#p5656</id>
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If this is true it would be great!! <br /><br />I have been exploring this too. (for when I get my Bioloid  <img src="http://forum.robosavvy.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /> ) The Li-Po or Li-Ion batts will extend the Bioloid's run time and reducing the weight will also lend to longer run times. This could also lead to the ability to build larger robots with more actuators. Very cool! I will keep researching this subject as much as I can. Please keep us updated Pev!<br /><br />- Marc<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=362">NullARC</a> — Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:43 pm</p><hr />
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<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[Pev]]></name></author>
<updated>2006-12-31T22:07:30+01:00</updated>
<published>2006-12-31T22:07:30+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5655#p5655</id>
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Thanks All,<br /><br />Think I'll start working on this in the new year<br /><br />Happy New years to you all too<br /><br />Pev<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=88">Pev</a> — Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:07 pm</p><hr />
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<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[billyzelsnack]]></name></author>
<updated>2006-12-31T21:30:11+01:00</updated>
<published>2006-12-31T21:30:11+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5654#p5654</id>
<link href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5654#p5654"/>
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hmm. where did my post go. let's try again...<br /><br />Target has a 2s 7.4v 740mah lipo + charger for an Air Hogs Storm Launcher RC toy on clearance for $15. Might be a cheap way for people to experiment with lipos.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=459">billyzelsnack</a> — Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:30 pm</p><hr />
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<entry>
<author><name><![CDATA[JonHylands]]></name></author>
<updated>2006-12-31T20:44:11+01:00</updated>
<published>2006-12-31T20:44:11+01:00</published>
<id>http://forum.robosavvy.com/viewtopic.php?t=902&amp;p=5652#p5652</id>
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Thing you have to remember, a 3.7 volt LiPo is actually 4.2 volts fully charged, so you're pumping 12.6 volts through, not 11.1.<br /><br />That being said, I doubt it will make any difference - it should work fine.<br /><br />- Jon<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://forum.robosavvy.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=373">JonHylands</a> — Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:44 pm</p><hr />
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