RoboSavvy Forum

RB1000 Hardware Review (Japanese)

2006-06-05T03:13:36+01:00

Robot Watch published the first installment of a fairly extensive review of the JRProPo RB1000 kit last week with lots of photos and details. You can click on any of the photos for a closer look.

http://robot.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/column/2006/06/01/17.html

Statistics: Posted by tempusmaster — Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:13 am

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-05-02T17:23:09+01:00

one striking difference is still the hitec 8498 servo with its position feedback. RB dont have catch and play, so only by clicking and typing move can be generated.

If Hitec can bring out 5995 with 32kg tourque servo also with feedback feature, then it would be quite interesting...

Statistics: Posted by trinozon — Tue May 02, 2006 5:23 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-20T13:32:17+01:00

That did it for a lot of people. Funny thing is that the KHR-1 was doing almost exactly the same routine before the RN appeared.

Yes I had the movie files of the KHR long ago. Funny thing is, that a lot of robots doing just the same demo-stunts. But for me that was good, it makes them a little more comparable.
RN won for me mainly because of the price. At that time it was 850 Euros against 1700 Euros of the KHR. And I thought that most of the programing and the manuals are in asian-language, whilst the RN had the Software in english already to download as a demo.

Still I dream of a torque-monster with a lot of DOF like the YDH-EZA featured here at this site. But they are way more expensive.

They'll hit the targeted price, at least that's what Okamoto says. Under the covers Manoi is extremely well built. I was expecting a KHR-1 clone with nice plastic, and was really surprised when we got to take it completely apart.

Good to know. And yes I saw the dissection-videos @ robots-dreams. Really beautiful designed.

For example, if you watch the first few seconds of his ROBO-ONE 9 demonstration you can see that he even has the robot making slight breathing movements while it's supposed to be 'sleeping'.

Saw it and was amazed.
Actually I tried to program a little more lifelike stuff myself last weekend after I saw the video and remembered some sequences of chroino.
For example my RN now claps his hands to "get rid of some dirt" after the stand-up-from-lying moves. Looks funny.
I think, I will post the code here, so one can see what I mean. Just have to obtain it from my laptop this evening.

Statistics: Posted by yag-freak — Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:32 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-20T03:38:59+01:00

yag-freak wrote:
tempusmaster wrote:You're right in that it is more than that - much, much more. Unfortunately most of the press seems to focus on the battle aspect and ignores the other 90%.

I know that phaenomenon. It's like the robo-competitions here, or the Robocup. Very interesting challenges but the only thing every TV channel broadcasts are the aibos playing. ***They are soooo cute***

Well, if it ends up expanding visibility and gets more people interested, then I suppose it's a good thing.

Personally, I find the Demonstration phase of the competitions much more interesting and exciting.

Yeah it was the dance performance of the RN which got me on the hook.

That did it for a lot of people. Funny thing is that the KHR-1 was doing almost exactly the same routine before the RN appeared. Hitec expanded on it, increased the number of robots performing simultaneously, and presented it in a much more striking and impressive fashion.

That used to be true, but at ROBO-ONE 9 last month there were quite a few robots that had an array of sensors, did visual recognition and tracking, and other similar features. We're not there yet, but the objective is to make them autonomous, and fairly soon.

Oh it would be so nice to see the event live, mostly I only get information over the web a long time after the event and mostly in an asian language I cannot read

[/quote]
It is quite different when you're there in person. My Japanese language ability is pretty basic, but I manage to get by somehow.

For the robot-like-an-R/C-car crowd, Kyosho with products like Manoi is more likely to be successful than the RB, and provides a lot more performance for the money. In the longer term, the RB is likely to be stuck in the middle between the two potential markets.

I agree with you. The Manoi is really nice and from the appearance a real bang for the buck if the meet their wanted price just above the RN-1.

They'll hit the targeted price, at least that's what Okamoto says. Under the covers Manoi is extremely well built. I was expecting a KHR-1 clone with nice plastic, and was really surprised when we got to take it completely apart. 8O 8O 8O

But as you mentioned I also see Hitec and Kondo, perhaps another big company in this market.
The RB from Graupner is in fact just an older design I've seen somewhere in a video before. I have to look in my files, but I don't have them here at work.

There's a whole bunch of similar designs out, and more on the way. Some of them are really cool, but I have to wonder if they have the business backing to survive long term.

And the Manoi looks just like a licence-production of the chroino of the great Tomotaka Takahashi. But I really like the way it moves. But have you seen the FT, that's really cute.

Chroino, Manoi, and FT are all Takahashi creations. Takahashi is even featured on the Kyosho/Manoi website. FT is definitely cute - no question.

Personaly I like most the new entries to Robo-One. The agility of OmniZero.2 and the like. WOW!

Maeda (OmniZero.2) is really fantastic as a robot designer, and he's a great showman as well. For example, if you watch the first few seconds of his ROBO-ONE 9 demonstration you can see that he even has the robot making slight breathing movements while it's supposed to be 'sleeping'.

Of course Maeda isn't really a 'hobbyist', he's a pro. His day job is with VStone.

Given how much the ROBO-ONE robots have advanced over the past year or so, I suspect that they will have to introduce some new classifications - like a set of Professional and Amateur categories - by next Spring.

I'm pretty heavily biased towards the RN as well, and don't even have one sitting next to me!

Go ahead and buy one! What are you waiting for! Expand the comunity

Steffen

As much as I really like the RN - and I do, honestly - it will probably end up being my second biped. I'll know more this weekend.

Statistics: Posted by tempusmaster — Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:38 am

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-19T20:21:12+01:00

After doing a bit of homework on the RB1000 I can say that it is not "hands down better" than the RN1.
The forward movement is severly limited and while it looks flashy if you want it to do anything other than stunts and combat moves it's going to run into trouble.

RN1 is still the better choice

Statistics: Posted by Gil — Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:21 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-19T15:27:46+01:00

Whilst my RN-1 is nursing it's wounds, I agree that the above discussion between you two are undeniable.

While we all can say that RN-1 is better than KHR-1 and that RB1000 is better than RN-1, the obvious truth is - the best is yet to come.

The roboworld will be revolutionized like we never imagined and we will be the happy bunch at the end of the day...

Yes the bottomline is there will always be a better bot each new year!!!

Japanese maker will make sure it happens! And although there are one or two Japanese companies doing commercial production now, I bet some more will join the crowd. Let us not forget, the Koreans are catching fast and those who own RN-1 have much to thank them for that. I do.

As we may anticipate, from infancy stage now to fierce competition later will result to more wild creations that will only push the evolution curve to the max (in a not too distant future). Whoever imagined that we will have flat screen TV's now? Or a smartphone and everything?

Statistics: Posted by Lomruz — Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-19T15:14:29+01:00

tempusmaster wrote:
You're right in that it is more than that - much, much more. Unfortunately most of the press seems to focus on the battle aspect and ignores the other 90%.

I know that phaenomenon. It's like the robo-competitions here, or the Robocup. Very interesting challenges but the only thing every TV channel broadcasts are the aibos playing. ***They are soooo cute***

Personally, I find the Demonstration phase of the competitions much more interesting and exciting.

Yeah it was the dance performance of the RN which got me on the hook.

That used to be true, but at ROBO-ONE 9 last month there were quite a few robots that had an array of sensors, did visual recognition and tracking, and other similar features. We're not there yet, but the objective is to make them autonomous, and fairly soon.

Oh it would be so nice to see the event live, mostly I only get information over the web a long time after the event and mostly in an asian language I cannot read

For the robot-like-an-R/C-car crowd, Kyosho with products like Manoi is more likely to be successful than the RB, and provides a lot more performance for the money. In the longer term, the RB is likely to be stuck in the middle between the two potential markets.

I agree with you. The Manoi is really nice and from the appearance a real bang for the buck if the meet their wanted price just above the RN-1.
But as you mentioned I also see Hitec and Kondo, perhaps another big company in this market.
The RB from Graupner is in fact just an older design I've seen somewhere in a video before. I have to look in my files, but I don't have them here at work.
And the Manoi looks just like a licence-production of the chroino of the great Tomotaka Takahashi. But I really like the way it moves. But have you seen the FT, that's really cute.

Personaly I like most the new entries to Robo-One. The agility of OmniZero.2 and the like. WOW!

I'm pretty heavily biased towards the RN as well, and don't even have one sitting next to me!

Go ahead and buy one! What are you waiting for! Expand the comunity

Steffen

Statistics: Posted by yag-freak — Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:14 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-19T14:38:05+01:00

Yag-freak,

Thanks for taking the time to respond with so much detail.

yag-freak wrote:
I meant:
In the Robo-One competition one of the main attractions is a sort of robot battle.
Two robots are together in a small arena. You get points if your oponent looses balance and falls because you pushed, thrown, etc. him. (Explained in the simplest way. I know, Robo-One is more than that.)

You're right in that it is more than that - much, much more. Unfortunately most of the press seems to focus on the battle aspect and ignores the other 90%.

Personally, I find the Demonstration phase of the competitions much more interesting and exciting.

The robots are controlled via RC. So the robot has to do stuff like: walk forward, walk backward, turn, do Attack #1, do Attack #2, do evasive maneuver #5, get up, etc.
You get the point. It's like the Battlebot stuff. Guys with RC-Gear controlling Robots to do something.
Perfectly for a robot with predefined moves controlled via RC.

That used to be true, but at ROBO-ONE 9 last month there were quite a few robots that had an array of sensors, did visual recognition and tracking, and other similar features. We're not there yet, but the objective is to make them autonomous, and fairly soon.

Graupner, the company who is selling the RB1000 in germany, has a long RC background seen from the company history.
And they advertise the robot in that manner. Which means they emphasize the point of the robot being radio controlable. You get minor information about the software the RB comes with, the features of the controllerboard, etc.

That's understandable, though certainly not ideal.

From the advertising point the RN is much more pointed to the "experimenter".
Yes, you get your RN with the IR-Controller, but the main emphasis is on the point that it is programable.

I suppose that was what I didn't immediately grok about your previous comment. The control approach, whether it's IR, R/C, Bluetooth, or something else really seems to be a separate issue from the programability and expandability.

Even when you look at the software you get, you find "template" and "Demo"-programs with the RN.
So a kind of "look at it, try it, then program your own stuff!"

The RB is advertised as "it is able to do the following moves..."
Much more preconfigured.

That really is a marketing/distribution channel issue.

And I think, at least here in germany, people interested in the RN-1 are the people who want to experiment, as you see it in this forum. Let the robot climb stairs or even build some new grippers.
While people that are interested in the RB, are the main customer of companys like graupner and are happy to have a robot that can do things the company said.
Like being happy with the functions of a radio controlled car and perhaps tuning the motor. But they would not have the idea to attach sensors to it, so that the car is able to avoid obstacles by himself.

You may be right. Eventually we may see both markets emerge and grow in the same way that the earliest PC devotees were homebrew hackers.

Just two different ways to look at things.

Not that the RB isn't capable of hosting such modifications. But I think, Hitec via Multiplex will come out with much more parts to modify the robot than Graupner will do.

I tend to agree with you. Right now there are only two strong players, Kondo and Hitec, and lots of other wannabes.

Graupner will perhaps have a second version of the robot next year.
And Hitec will probably have a big list of add-ons. Just have a look at the sensors etc. available or comming on www.robonova.de.

My guess is the race will be between Kondo and Hitec since they're the only ones with the financial and management resources to stay in the game for the long term.

For the robot-like-an-R/C-car crowd, Kyosho with products like Manoi is more likely to be successful than the RB, and provides a lot more performance for the money. In the longer term, the RB is likely to be stuck in the middle between the two potential markets.

But these are just my two cents. And I'm heavily biased towards the RN, because it sits right here beside me

Steffen

I'm pretty heavily biased towards the RN as well, and don't even have one sitting next to me!

Statistics: Posted by tempusmaster — Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:38 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-19T10:05:11+01:00

tempusmaster wrote:
I guess I don't understand that comment. Could you explain in more detail?

I meant:
In the Robo-One competition one of the main attractions is a sort of robot battle.
Two robots are together in a small arena. You get points if your oponent looses balance and falls because you pushed, thrown, etc. him. (Explained in the simplest way. I know, Robo-One is more than that.)
The robots are controlled via RC. So the robot has to do stuff like: walk forward, walk backward, turn, do Attack #1, do Attack #2, do evasive maneuver #5, get up, etc.
You get the point. It's like the Battlebot stuff. Guys with RC-Gear controlling Robots to do something.
Perfectly for a robot with predefined moves controlled via RC.

Graupner, the company who is selling the RB1000 in germany, has a long RC background seen from the company history.
And they advertise the robot in that manner. Which means they emphasize the point of the robot being radio controlable. You get minor information about the software the RB comes with, the features of the controllerboard, etc.

From the advertising point the RN is much more pointed to the "experimenter".
Yes, you get your RN with the IR-Controller, but the main emphasis is on the point that it is programable.

Even when you look at the software you get, you find "template" and "Demo"-programs with the RN.
So a kind of "look at it, try it, then program your own stuff!"

The RB is advertised as "it is able to do the following moves..."
Much more preconfigured.

And I think, at least here in germany, people interested in the RN-1 are the people who want to experiment, as you see it in this forum. Let the robot climb stairs or even build some new grippers.
While people that are interested in the RB, are the main customer of companys like graupner and are happy to have a robot that can do things the company said.
Like being happy with the functions of a radio controlled car and perhaps tuning the motor. But they would not have the idea to attach sensors to it, so that the car is able to avoid obstacles by himself.

Just two different ways to look at things.

Not that the RB isn't capable of hosting such modifications. But I think, Hitec via Multiplex will come out with much more parts to modify the robot than Graupner will do.

Graupner will perhaps have a second version of the robot next year.
And Hitec will probably have a big list of add-ons. Just have a look at the sensors etc. available or comming on www.robonova.de.

But these are just my two cents. And I'm heavily biased towards the RN, because it sits right here beside me

Steffen

Statistics: Posted by yag-freak — Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:05 am

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T20:50:44+01:00

If you were planning to use the robot for battle then I would suggest the RB100 with the better servos. It seems the RB100 is built more for radio control more then autonomy. Otherwise go with the robonova if your looking to experiment a little.

What I want to do is to implement Subsumption architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsumption_architecture). I'm thinking of maybe having a 2nd CPU taking care of that by using the serial port.

Would that be easy to implement it on a RN? Is their a protocol for controlling all the RN's functions, including poling the sensors and servos over the serial port? If so were can I find it?

The protocol for RB1000 is here (only in Japanese) :
http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb100 ... 2_data.pdf

Here are some videos of RB1000:

http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb100 ... 0_19-1.wmv
http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb100 ... 0_15-1.wmv
http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb100 ... 0_25-1.wmv
http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb100 ... 0_18-1.wmv
http://www.vstone.co.jp/~robo-pro/rb1000/RB1000_3-1.wmv

//SirAho

Statistics: Posted by SirAho — Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:50 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T19:55:04+01:00

About me buying a RN1

I'm from Romania... and in it. (aka all the disadvantages of living in Europe and none of the advantages)

Quote from the [url]Hitec Europe site[/url]

We accept orders only from Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg. For other countries, please contact your local dealers.

The problem is that I couldn't locate an official dealer and any RC stores I talked to either simply refused or asked for outrageous sums ("You want a robot? ... psst... this guy wants a robot... he must be loaded! Let's rip him off" )

I could wait till 2007 when we join the EU and be sure I don't get screwed over with customs taxes but that doesn't exactly appeal to me.

__________

About RB1000 vs RN1

I didn't really notice the problem with leaning forward until now. You guys are right.

The thing with implementing twistable legs or a waist in RN is the fact that you need to cut/replace the torso chassis.
Also you'll have to automatically make it taller and that means readjusting all the limbs to fit the new dimensions (think Vitruvian-robot )

Statistics: Posted by Gil — Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:55 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T19:09:30+01:00

Perhaps I should have said a new body module to allow rotatable hips.

I did see one of the robo-one robots that had standard hips but the foot turned which is a slightly more novel approach.

For the loading the weight would be pushing into the servo which I see as being ok. I see the most stressed ones as the ankle and upper leg as these are constantly under load.

I see a home built hip mod quite a way away.

Statistics: Posted by oliver_s — Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:09 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T17:31:24+01:00

Looking at RN it seems like it would be pretty easy to make the hip turn.

I wouldn't think it'd be as easy as it seems. There's a lot that needs to go into a design like that. I mean, you have several factors to worry about - not only the servo positions, but things like: the chest and back plates, the interior brackets, the top plate - all need resized. What about the plastic torso covers? Surely they won't fit after makiong a modification like that. There's a lot of weight being supported by the hip, and not sure if it would be practical to use the standard HSR...HB servo. Hitec offers the next step up - a larger 333oz.in HSR servo. It’s different in size and in the way it's mounted.... BUT, has titanium gears! ...lot of work.

it's the control that complicates matters. RoboBasic does allow you to rotate non-existant servos through real time control and insert them to the program but it isn't perfect. Ideally you would want a better control program so you could see the modified RN will all servos (including hands).

I agree with you there. Also, the standard motion codes probably wouldn't play out the same after all the mods.

Statistics: Posted by bauermech — Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:31 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T17:19:36+01:00

yag-freak wrote:
The big point is really, that the RB is ment to be radio controlled. Perhaps better for the Robo-One stuff.

I guess I don't understand that comment. Could you explain in more detail?

Statistics: Posted by tempusmaster — Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:19 pm

Robonova VS JR RB1000.

2006-04-18T13:09:26+01:00

I'm banking on Hitec coming up with a solution, so I'm going to wait for that. I dread to think how much they will charge for it though. Hopefully they will allow you to buy the whole kit with improved legs and not just as an upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by rossoe — Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:09 pm