What to look for in MAKING THE CHOICE.

[Slumber]

Hey everyone,

I just discovered Robo-One and DIY robotics and have decided to get into the game. I am aiming to buy a kit in the next month, to get my bearings and begin learning about this incredible art.

A little about myself: I am a video artist (VJ). I have minimal programming experience, mostly visual programming in Max/Msp, VVVV, and a little Flash. I am pretty proficient in 3D modeling and animation, using mostly C4d and CAD. I have spent most of my time using OS X, but I'm not timid about using XP, especially since it seems that is the only option. That said, I am a very fast learner, as long as I have a decent support base.


So, the real question is, what to buy.

From what I can tell, kit robots boil down to 3 things?

1. Servos.
These are the muscle of the bot and are responsible for actuating movement. The amount of torque is really what limits how quickly a bot can move. Rotation is another key factor, as this limits the type of moves that can be performed. The number of servos dictate the bot's DOF i.e. how many ways it can move.

2. Controller and Expansion.
Basically, your controller relays information to and from your PC using Bluetooth or RC. It monitors servo positions and tells them when and where to move. The controller also allows for expansion via its ports, so you can interface gyros, sensors, cameras, etc. which provides for more precise movement and interaction with the environment. The amount of free ports on a controller limit how many sensors and servos can be added.

3. Software.
Probably the most important? Software takes all the data acquired by sensors and servo feedback and analyzes it. It runs those parameters through the code you've written and sends it back to the controller.
Software is also responsible for acquiring, programming and performing motion sequences (like a walk cycle). Each kit comes with their own proprietary software.

That's the gist of what I've learned so far. Is this correct?

I've narrowed down my choices to 3 Kits:
Robonova-1
KHR-1HV
Bioloid

Here are the questions I have:

Servo Questions:
Which of these has the most powerful stock servos?
Which has the most powerful non-stock servos?
Which has the best (cost/performance) non-stock servos?
Do metal gears/horns make a huge difference with joint durability?
Which kit has the most OOB DOF?

Controller Questions:
Which controller has the most expansion in terms of sensor?
Which controller is the easiest to interface with?

Software Questions:
Which of these provides the most User Friendly software (english)?
Which software has the most potential expansion?
Do each of these have the ability to read servo positions realtime?
Do each have the ability to do keyframe animatics?
Which software is easiest to implement sensors with (particularly gyros)?

General Questions:
Are all of these J-Class bots?
Any new bot kits on the horizon in J-Class range?

Whew, yeah, I know its a lot. I've been looking for a good comparison of these kits, but something is always missing. And yes, I scoured these forums inside and out, so please don't just refer me to a previous post. Besides, old questions can have new answers.

That said, thanks to everyone on the forums for simply being here. I wouldn't have even contemplated going into this, much less decided to do it if it weren't for everyone here. The wealth of information in this forum is unparalleled, and probably the single most important reason I've decided to become part of the community. Thank you.

[Robo1]

I would have a look at the mods people have done to see what is possible with these bots.

The RN is probably the most popular on this site so you would get the most support there and people have done lots of mods for it.

The Bioloid is more for programming guys and probably easier for adding things on as you can add things to it's bus.

I wouldn't worry about the class of the robot as this are really just toys and wouldn't really be up for true competitions also the only place out side japan korea is UK and USA, never of these competitions have classes any way. Plus the classes are being changes to weight above and below 3Kg.

On the servo front you can't do a straight swap with the servo's so in theory you could replace and servo in any bot. It all depends on how hard you want it to be.

Bren

[tempusmaster]

Hey everyone,

I just discovered Robo-One and DIY robotics and have decided to get into the game.

Welcome aboard.

A little about myself: I am a video artist (VJ). I have minimal programming experience, mostly visual programming in Max/Msp, VVVV, and a little Flash. I am pretty proficient in 3D modeling and animation, using mostly C4d and CAD. I have spent most of my time using OS X, but I'm not timid about using XP, especially since it seems that is the only option. That said, I am a very fast learner, as long as I have a decent support base.

You definitely would benefit from talking to i-Wei (Crabfu Steam Works). He comes from a video animation (video games) background, understands human motion and how to simulate it both in video games and with his KHR-2HV.

So, the real question is, what to buy.

Well, for most of it the question has turned out to be 'What to buy first...' Humanoids are like potato chips, it's impossible to eat just one.

From what I can tell, kit robots boil down to 3 things?

1. Servos.
These are the muscle of the bot and are responsible for actuating movement. The amount of torque is really what limits how quickly a bot can move. Rotation is another key factor, as this limits the type of moves that can be performed. The number of servos dictate the bot's DOF i.e. how many ways it can move.

Servo speed determines how fast the bot can move, while torque determines whether it can achieve that speed given the loaded weight and momentum.

Another factor is the effective resolution of the servo/controller combination. All of the first generation designs (KHR-1, Robonova-1, etc.) are controlled in 1 degree increments which tends to limit the movement realism and motion smoothness. The second generation designs usually have much finer resolution, on the order of 3X or better.

2. Controller and Expansion.
Basically, your controller relays information to and from your PC using Bluetooth or RC. It monitors servo positions and tells them when and where to move. The controller also allows for expansion via its ports, so you can interface gyros, sensors, cameras, etc. which provides for more precise movement and interaction with the environment. The amount of free ports on a controller limit how many sensors and servos can be added.

Basically.

3. Software.
Probably the most important? Software takes all the data acquired by sensors and servo feedback and analyzes it. It runs those parameters through the code you've written and sends it back to the controller.
Software is also responsible for acquiring, programming and performing motion sequences (like a walk cycle). Each kit comes with their own proprietary software.

All most all (perhaps all) of it is piss poor. Of course that is good news if you're a programmer type and want a good challenge.

That's the gist of what I've learned so far. Is this correct?

Yes, basically.

I've narrowed down my choices to 3 Kits:
Robonova-1
KHR-1HV
Bioloid

Here are the questions I have:

Servo Questions:
Which of these has the most powerful stock servos?
Which has the most powerful non-stock servos?
Which has the best (cost/performance) non-stock servos?
Do metal gears/horns make a huge difference with joint durability?
Which kit has the most OOB DOF?

They are all entry level kits, so the servos aren't the most powerful, and it's usually difficult to replace them with more powerful servos without doing a lot of custom frame fabrication. The Kyosho AT01, which is more expensive, does use the KRS-4000 servos which provides for a drop in replacement - you can increase the servo torque by 4X, assuming you can afford the more powerful servos ($$$)

Metal gears can make a huge difference.

The KHR-1HV has the most OOB DOF on your list, it's also a second generation design. On the other hand, it has no English docs (you have to follow the KHR-2HV docs) while the other two have fairly good English documentation.

Controller Questions:
Which controller has the most expansion in terms of sensor?
Which controller is the easiest to interface with?

I don't know enough about that aspect for the Robonova and Bioloid kits. The RCB-3 based robots (KHR-1HV, etc.) have been limited to three sensor ports, but Kyosho just released an option board with 32 ports that seems to solve that limitation.

As far as 'easiest to interface with', probably the Robonova or Bioloid because of the documentation and large support groups.

Software Questions:
Which of these provides the most User Friendly software (english)?

None in the true sense of 'user friendly' though the KHR-1HV software (H2H3) is probably the least friendly for non-Japanese literate. It's extremely powerful, especially with the firmware update last February, but hard to understand and work with for a novice.

Which software has the most potential expansion?

For the long term, probably Bioloid. The Robonova is very good for beginners and even some pretty advanced users, but the Basic approach has its limitations. For the KHR-1HV, if you really want to get into extensive expansion you would eventually want to replace the controller board with something more expandable and user friendly.

Do each of these have the ability to read servo positions realtime?

Pass.

Do each have the ability to do keyframe animatics?

If I understand your question correctly, then yes - that's how they work.

Which software is easiest to implement sensors with (particularly gyros)?

I'm not sure with the RN and Bioloid. Gyros are easy to implement with the KHR-1HV, and you can modify their actions dynamically under program control.

General Questions:
Are all of these J-Class bots?

Yes, though there is no ROBO-ONE J class anymore. It has been dropped in favor of weight classifications.

Any new bot kits on the horizon in J-Class range?

Yes - there are more on the way. For example, RoboPhilo will be officially unveiled next week at the iHobby Expo show in Chicago. You can expect to see more robots of this type rolling out over the next 12 months.

Whew, yeah, I know its a lot. I've been looking for a good comparison of these kits, but something is always missing. And yes, I scoured these forums inside and out, so please don't just refer me to a previous post. Besides, old questions can have new answers.

That said, thanks to everyone on the forums for simply being here. I wouldn't have even contemplated going into this, much less decided to do it if it weren't for everyone here. The wealth of information in this forum is unparalleled, and probably the single most important reason I've decided to become part of the community. Thank you.

Glad to have you here. We're definitely looking forward to you contributing to the overall knowledge and experience base.

[Humanoido]

RN is amazing and popular, both in hardware and software. It has a lot of outstanding support on this forum. The software is very capable and excellent.

humanoido

[Zoid]

I have no bots yet, so everything I'm about to say is based strictly on what I've read.

The amount of free ports on a controller limit how many sensors and servos can be added

In most cases, yes. However, the Bioloid controller (the CM-5) talks to all servos and sensors using an I2C ("2-wire serial) bus, and since all the Bioloid devices (servos and sensors) have 2 connector ports to facilitate pass-through (daisy-chaining of devices), you are theoretically limited only by the number of binary addresses. I think that's 127 for the Bioloid. The limits of electrical power and CPU speed become the limiting factor. There are ways to combat both.

...controller relays information to and from your PC using Bluetooth or RC...

That's one way of doing things, but the controllers are capable of so much more. The controller IS a computer, and--with some limitation--you can program it to do a huge amount of stuff without relying on a "mother ship" computer.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off base here.

[JonHylands]

Actually, the Bioloid uses a 3-wire serial bus. One wire is for servo power, one for ground, and the third is for serial communications. The serial line runs at 1.0 Mbps, and has no relation to I2C.

- Jon

[Zoid]

You say there's no relation to I2C? As I understand it, Atmel processors implement TWI (I2C on steroids), and I thought that was the basis of the Bioloid bus (plus a power lead). Where did I go astray? Is the Bioloid bus truly unique?

[JonHylands]

The Atmel AVR processors can do a number of different protocols, including I2C, SPI, and RS232. The Bioloid bus uses a variant of RS-232 where the Rx and Tx lines are joined together, making the bus half-duplex.

Nothing whatsoever to do with I2C, however...

- Jon