Newbie, Bioloid and related questions!
Newbie, Bioloid and related questions!
by Dimitris
Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:16 pm
Hi all! Just got registered on the forums! Currently I am desperate to start playing around with humanoid robotics and learning from experience, but first need to decide which robot I'm gonna start off with. I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Bioloid, however I am also keeping my mind open, since last week i was gonna go for a Robonova! I was initially either going for the KHR-2 or the Robonova, however the Bioloid seems a better value for money for all the reason below:
more servos which are also more powerful
servo feedback,
daisy chaining,
sensors,
ability to build many different designs,
if I'm not mistaken, and extra leg DOF (leg twist) which the others don't have and is very useful,
... and many more
The main issue however is the fact that I don't want it to end up as an expensive toy sitting on the shelf, so it should be pretty expandable. This is why I want the kit to be able to be programmed with a more professional language (mainly C). Fair enough, anything is possible and the robonova controller for example could be substituted by any other one in order to control servos and everything, however this adds to the cost plus my knowledge is fairly limited at the moment. Given the ability to readily program in C is a huge bonus, and correct me if I'm wrong, from reading so far is that the bioloid does have this ability (WIN-AVR?) whereas the others don't. Is C programming supported for both the controller and servos or just the servos? And how easy, hard would it be to move away from the simple Behaviour editor and do more advanced things?
Now my concerns against it are not really technical, more the case of the fact that it is not as popular as the other 2. Is this because it is fairly new to the European market? What advantages do others get by chosing other designs over the bioloid? Only problems I've heard are the noisy servos which apparently can be fixed judging from the forum.
Also, anyone know more about the 'expert' bioloid kit containing a c dev environment, wireless, webcam and other fancy stuff! I only saw it mentioned here:
http://www.botmag.com/articles/robotis_ ... _kit.shtml
I better finish off now because I'm ranting too much! To conclude, since all kits now have a fairly similar price, is it a good idea to choose the bioloid over the RN-1 for the reasons mentioned? I'm afraid I can see the Robonova turning into an expensive toy!
Also I doubt it, but does anyone have 1st-hand experience of 2 or more bots and how they compare? As the bioloid is not available here for the next couple of weeks, I'm going to use the time to research properly and see all the alternatives, since half a grand better be worth it!
That's all then! Hope to hear from ppl! Nice to join the forum!
Dimitris
more servos which are also more powerful
servo feedback,
daisy chaining,
sensors,
ability to build many different designs,
if I'm not mistaken, and extra leg DOF (leg twist) which the others don't have and is very useful,
... and many more
The main issue however is the fact that I don't want it to end up as an expensive toy sitting on the shelf, so it should be pretty expandable. This is why I want the kit to be able to be programmed with a more professional language (mainly C). Fair enough, anything is possible and the robonova controller for example could be substituted by any other one in order to control servos and everything, however this adds to the cost plus my knowledge is fairly limited at the moment. Given the ability to readily program in C is a huge bonus, and correct me if I'm wrong, from reading so far is that the bioloid does have this ability (WIN-AVR?) whereas the others don't. Is C programming supported for both the controller and servos or just the servos? And how easy, hard would it be to move away from the simple Behaviour editor and do more advanced things?
Now my concerns against it are not really technical, more the case of the fact that it is not as popular as the other 2. Is this because it is fairly new to the European market? What advantages do others get by chosing other designs over the bioloid? Only problems I've heard are the noisy servos which apparently can be fixed judging from the forum.
Also, anyone know more about the 'expert' bioloid kit containing a c dev environment, wireless, webcam and other fancy stuff! I only saw it mentioned here:
http://www.botmag.com/articles/robotis_ ... _kit.shtml
I better finish off now because I'm ranting too much! To conclude, since all kits now have a fairly similar price, is it a good idea to choose the bioloid over the RN-1 for the reasons mentioned? I'm afraid I can see the Robonova turning into an expensive toy!
Also I doubt it, but does anyone have 1st-hand experience of 2 or more bots and how they compare? As the bioloid is not available here for the next couple of weeks, I'm going to use the time to research properly and see all the alternatives, since half a grand better be worth it!
That's all then! Hope to hear from ppl! Nice to join the forum!
Dimitris
by pepperm
Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:24 am
I'm going through exactly the same decision process, Robonova last week, Bioloid since I have discovered that Robonova is not the only option.
As for programming in "C", great, I can do that but I also have BASCOM's AVR BASIC compiler (it didn't cost much) that I use. I write AVR BASIC code for things like my RobotWars speed controllers and conventional servor control units. It will work with the Bioloid I am sure as the controller contains just another AVR processor. I also have Codevision (it didn't cost much either) a commercial "C" compiler that is much easier for a beginner to use and may well have routines available for the serial comms to the servosand sensors. Both compilers are well supported on the internet with examples and Yahoo forums. WinAVR is great too, just not so suitable for beginners. There is a great book on the AVR butterfly which uses WinAVR and serves as a great tutorial for WinAVR and AVRgcc.
Also I notice the Bioloid controller has an expansion connector location on the PCB that would support the connection of other devices such as SRF04s, accelerometers, compasses etc.
All the above certainly makes me salivate, and on top of that, you can make many different robot types which appeals to the Lego child within me
And it's cheaper than the Robonova.
It looks great to me, the only issue is getting one. There don't seem to be any available for purchaseat the moment.
Mark
As for programming in "C", great, I can do that but I also have BASCOM's AVR BASIC compiler (it didn't cost much) that I use. I write AVR BASIC code for things like my RobotWars speed controllers and conventional servor control units. It will work with the Bioloid I am sure as the controller contains just another AVR processor. I also have Codevision (it didn't cost much either) a commercial "C" compiler that is much easier for a beginner to use and may well have routines available for the serial comms to the servosand sensors. Both compilers are well supported on the internet with examples and Yahoo forums. WinAVR is great too, just not so suitable for beginners. There is a great book on the AVR butterfly which uses WinAVR and serves as a great tutorial for WinAVR and AVRgcc.
Also I notice the Bioloid controller has an expansion connector location on the PCB that would support the connection of other devices such as SRF04s, accelerometers, compasses etc.
All the above certainly makes me salivate, and on top of that, you can make many different robot types which appeals to the Lego child within me
And it's cheaper than the Robonova.
It looks great to me, the only issue is getting one. There don't seem to be any available for purchaseat the moment.
Mark
by pepperm
Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:28 pm
Hi
In the CM-2 english manual I downloaded from somewhere (maybe the robotis site) there is a circuit diagram and pictures of the CM-2. That shows a JF1 connector which has many of the I/O ports from the processor (PortA,B,D,F and some of G and the reset and power lines). It's a 40 pin connector and the pictures show that there is no connector in place on the PCB, just the holes in the board (note that I do not have one of my own yet so am only going by the circuit diag and pictures). I would fit a connector then use it to connect things to the processor.
The Bioloid does use the CM-2 doesn't it? As I don't have one I am just researching on the web so I could of gone down a blind ally I guess.
Regards
Mark Pepper
In the CM-2 english manual I downloaded from somewhere (maybe the robotis site) there is a circuit diagram and pictures of the CM-2. That shows a JF1 connector which has many of the I/O ports from the processor (PortA,B,D,F and some of G and the reset and power lines). It's a 40 pin connector and the pictures show that there is no connector in place on the PCB, just the holes in the board (note that I do not have one of my own yet so am only going by the circuit diag and pictures). I would fit a connector then use it to connect things to the processor.
The Bioloid does use the CM-2 doesn't it? As I don't have one I am just researching on the web so I could of gone down a blind ally I guess.
Regards
Mark Pepper
by inaki
Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:36 am
It is a CM5. There is no specific manual for CM5, just the general manual that comes with the kit. They do not detail anything about the controller. Actually there is no much to detail because the board is pretty simple.
I posted some pictures of the CM5 somewhere in this forum some time ago.
I posted some pictures of the CM5 somewhere in this forum some time ago.
by pepperm
Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:06 am
Mmmm, this could foil my plans for world domination then 
I'll have to have a look round for those photos. If you have the pointer please post them again because I am never very successful finding things on forums.
There must be some way to connect to the processor I/O though. Failing that I could have a look at custom RS485 devices to give the I/O
Mark
I'll have to have a look round for those photos. If you have the pointer please post them again because I am never very successful finding things on forums.
There must be some way to connect to the processor I/O though. Failing that I could have a look at custom RS485 devices to give the I/O
Mark
by pepperm
Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:31 am
Your right. The pictures are here:
http://robosavvy.com/modules.php?name=F ... hlight=cm5
That is a disapointment, no external connector other than the Zigbee thing. So it looks like soldering to individual processor pins would be needed. A terrible shame as the CM-2 looked very promosing.
The servo's and sensor modules are not RS485 either are they. I am really getting this all mixed up by the looks of things. The AX-12 is some serial TTL protocol.
Does anyone have a circuit diagram of the CM-5 worked out please?
Mark
http://robosavvy.com/modules.php?name=F ... hlight=cm5
That is a disapointment, no external connector other than the Zigbee thing. So it looks like soldering to individual processor pins would be needed. A terrible shame as the CM-2 looked very promosing.
The servo's and sensor modules are not RS485 either are they. I am really getting this all mixed up by the looks of things. The AX-12 is some serial TTL protocol.
Does anyone have a circuit diagram of the CM-5 worked out please?
Mark
by pepperm
Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:44 pm
Another good think about the Bioloid would appear to be that the humanoid robot and swivel the hips. The Robonova cannot I believe and is listed as one of the reasons it has difficulty turning corners.
The swiveling hips would help the humanoid Bioloid turn corners much more effectively.
Has any one experience of this?
Mark
The swiveling hips would help the humanoid Bioloid turn corners much more effectively.
Has any one experience of this?
Mark